For any and all

[n2nsites]

I have a sincere question.

I often read threads on various forums regarding "what the founding fathers wanted". Why is this important? Obviously, their world was incredibly different. How can we base our needs today on what "they" wanted?

I am very serious. I understand Christians saying "its in the bible" or Muslims - "the Koran" etc. For many those documents are absolute. But when it comes to the constiution et al, I don't understand. Wouldn't it be more of a fluid, "living" document - subject to interpretation based on the culture of the times? Wasn't it originally thought that there should be changes made to it periodically?

Thanks.

[Kender]

I've raised that point before myself. The Founding Fathers are almost religious figures. American saints, if you will. People have faith in the wisdom and values of the founding fathers.

I think that it comes from a desire to make sure that the Constitution is interpreted correctly...to make sure that the spirit of the law is taken into account as well as the letter of the law.

[outgirl]

n2nsites said:

I have a sincere question.

I often read threads on various forums regarding "what the founding fathers wanted". Why is this important? Obviously, their world was incredibly different. How can we base our needs today on what "they" wanted?

I am very serious. I understand Christians saying "its in the bible" or Muslims - "the Koran" etc. For many those documents are absolute. But when it comes to the constiution et al, I don't understand. Wouldn't it be more of a fluid, "living" document - subject to interpretation based on the culture of the times? Wasn't it originally thought that there should be changes made to it periodically?

Thanks.

Good questions. Have you ever seen Paula Poundstones interpretation of the forefathers right to bare arms? She mimics them loading the musket, taking one shot and then having to stop to load the powder into the musket again. They had no concept of automatic rifles that can kill 60 people in 30 seconds. Then she says"maybe they were like our own fathers, maybe they were just wrong." They were wrong about slavery. When they wrote all men were created equal they weren't talking about their black slaves. The world is so different. For the most part, the constitution is pretty good as it is but it is also interpreted differently. I believe in our right to bare arms but for me, that doesn't mean stockpiling an unlimited arsenal of assault weopons. I believe we can have gun control laws and still maintain our constitutional rights.

[Kender]

outgirl said:

Good questions. Have you ever seen Paula Poundstones interpretation of the forefathers right to bare arms? She mimics them loading the musket, taking one shot and then having to stop to load the powder into the musket again. They had no concept of automatic rifles that can kill 60 people in 30 seconds. Then she says"maybe they were like our own fathers, maybe they were just wrong." They were wrong about slavery. When they wrote all men were created equal they weren't talking about their black slaves. The world is so different. For the most part, the constitution is pretty good as it is but it is also interpreted differently. I believe in our right to bare arms but for me, that doesn't mean stockpiling an unlimited arsenal of assault weopons. I believe we can have gun control laws and still maintain our constitutional rights.

A couple points:

I don't think it matters if we're talking about a musket or an M-16. The founders were talking about having weapons to fight a war with. I don't have the time or motivation to go through the writings of the founding fathers, but they also knew that an armed population was also less likely to be abused by its government. Remember, the founding fathers were revolutionaries - they used force of arms to revolt against a government that was abusing them. The idea that the founding fathers would balk at the right to bear arms because our technology is better seems absurd to me. If citizens are to bear arms in order to defend their country from governments (foreign or domestic), then they should be able to be armed with the same quality of weaponry as those governments.

Second, they were talking about their slaves as well when they said that all men are created equal. Well, at least some of them were well aware of the contradiction and did not like it.

The problem was that it was still a divisive subject, and they could not work it out at the time. In order to avoid scrapping the Constitution, they had to compromise and leave it to future generations to sort out the slavery issue. In short, the slaves were victims of politics.

[outgirl]

Kender said:

A couple points:

I don't think it matters if we're talking about a musket or an M-16. The founders were talking about having weapons to fight a war with. I don't have the time or motivation to go through the writings of the founding fathers, but they also knew that an armed population was also less likely to be abused by its government. Remember, the founding fathers were revolutionaries - they used force of arms to revolt against a government that was abusing them. The idea that the founding fathers would balk at the right to bear arms because our technology is better seems absurd to me. If citizens are to bear arms in order to defend their country from governments (foreign or domestic), then they should be able to be armed with the same quality of weaponry as those governments.

Should American citizens be allowed to have weopons of mass destruction? Thats what an automatic assault rifle is...at least to the parents of the 30 kids gunned down in the schoolyard by that psycho a couple of years ago. Mass destruction. Mass heartache. Should everyone be allowed to have guns ? I grew up around guns and am perferctly comfortable with them This is really the first time I haven't had one in my home but I have no problem with a waiting period or with a police check to make sure I have no criminal record prior to getting one. The idea that gun control laws somehow violates the constitution is crazy to me. I think our founding fathers would be shocked at our world.

Kender said:

Second, they were talking about their slaves as well when they said that all men are created equal. Well, at least some of them were well aware of the contradiction and did not like it.
The problem was that it was still a divisive subject, and they could not work it out at the time. In order to avoid scrapping the Constitution, they had to compromise and leave it to future generations to sort out the slavery issue. In short, the slaves were victims of politics..

Thomas Jefferson, American hero
Most black americans hate him.
Whites idolize him. Slaves were not only victims of politics, they were victims of the men (like our founding fathers) who bought and sold them like the animals they were considered to be at the time. Sorry. I know it was the times, but I hold the individuals accountable for their actions as well. If you are unable to look at someone of another race and not see someone just like you, that's on you. I don't care if it's 1776 or 2005.

[Kender]

outgirl said:

Should American citizens be allowed to have weopons of mass destruction? Thats what an automatic assault rifle is...at least to the parents of the 30 kids gunned down in the schoolyard by that psycho a couple of years ago. Mass destruction. Mass heartache. Should everyone be allowed to have guns ? I grew up around guns and am perferctly comfortable with them This is really the first time I haven't had one in my home but I have no problem with a waiting period or with a police check to make sure I have no criminal record prior to getting one. The idea that gun control laws somehow violates the constitution is crazy to me. I think our founding fathers would be shocked at our world.

Although I don't own any firearms myself, I have no problem with assault rifles being legal. I like the idea of the average citizen being as well armed as the military.

People use a lot of hyperbole about the Bush administration being fascist. The good news is that we get to vote. Those who don't like Bush can vote for Kerry, and power can be transferred to Kerry peacefully. Yay USA.

In other countries, there have been military coups, and facist governments that make people "disappear". Should that ever happen here, I like the idea of the citizens of this great country being able to go home, grab their M-16, AK-47, M-60 etc., and take the fight to the facists. I like that better than the idea of them going home and grabbing their 12 guage shotgun, .45 calibur handgun, or deer rifle.

I doubt I'll live to see the day when such action is required, but I believe as the founders of our nation did, that an armed population is a deterrent against tyranny.

[outgirl]

Kender said:

Although I don't own any firearms myself, I have no problem with assault rifles being legal. I like the idea of the average citizen being as well armed as the military.

People use a lot of hyperbole about the Bush administration being fascist. The good news is that we get to vote. Those who don't like Bush can vote for Kerry, and power can be transferred to Kerry peacefully. Yay USA.

In other countries, there have been military coups, and facist governments that make people "disappear". Should that ever happen here, I like the idea of the citizens of this great country being able to go home, grab their M-16, AK-47, M-60 etc., and take the fight to the facists. I like that better than the idea of them going home and grabbing their 12 guage shotgun, .45 calibur handgun, or deer rifle.

I doubt I'll live to see the day when such action is required, but I believe as the founders of our nation did, that an armed population is a deterrent against tyranny.

I just think that's bullshit kender. You're a lot more likely to get gunned down by the next incarnation of the DC sniper with an assault rifle than you are likely to be involved in the violent overthrow of the US gov't.

[maylily]

I don't know...that's one of the things that bothers me. White supremacist groups have a history of stockpiling assault weapons, etc and they have no problems with committing acts of terrorism. Bank robberies, murder, etc.

Home grown terrorists are pretty well ignored by the public. And the white supremacist groups have been reportedly contacted by al Qeada and the like. Talk about strange bedfellows. There is so much emphasis on the external terrorists groups that internal ones are being apparently ignored. I find that frightening.

And I find it frightening that there are people who are legally able to own a weapon that have no business having a gun. I have laid awake many a night in terror since the concealed handgun law was passed. Think of the terror of knowing that there is someone that hates you...flat out, deep down hates you...and they could have a handgun every time you see them and you don't know it. And there is nothing that can be done about it. And there is no way to avoid seeing this person.

Okay, enough of that. I can't think about it anymore.

[RS Davis]

n2nsites said:

I have a sincere question.

I often read threads on various forums regarding "what the founding fathers wanted". Why is this important? Obviously, their world was incredibly different. How can we base our needs today on what "they" wanted?

The Founders were children of The Enlightenment, which was the birth of modern Western civilization - in it, the ideas of freedom of though, speech, and expression, the idea of religious freedom and tolerance, and most importantly, the ideas of individual rights. These aspects of the thoughts of the Founders are very important to remember, and they are increasingly forgotten.

n2nsites said:

I am very serious. I understand Christians saying "its in the bible" or Muslims - "the Koran" etc. For many those documents are absolute. But when it comes to the constiution et al, I don't understand. Wouldn't it be more of a fluid, "living" document - subject to interpretation based on the culture of the times? Wasn't it originally thought that there should be changes made to it periodically?

Thanks.

They wanted to make those changes incredibly difficult. It is almost impossible to Amend the Constitution, but due to activist judges of every stripe, it is also largely unneccessary.

- Rick

[RS Davis]

outgirl said:

Thomas Jefferson, American hero
Most black americans hate him.
Whites idolize him. Slaves were not only victims of politics, they were victims of the men (like our founding fathers) who bought and sold them like the animals they were considered to be at the time. Sorry. I know it was the times, but I hold the individuals accountable for their actions as well. If you are unable to look at someone of another race and not see someone just like you, that's on you. I don't care if it's 1776 or 2005.

Actually, it would be a good idea for the blacks that hate Jefferson to look deeper into history, as they will find Jefferson, Adams, and Franklin to be some of their earliest and loneliest supporters. In fact, it was only after three days of heated debate that the representatives from South Carolina and Georgia forced Jefferson to strike the following passage from the Declaration:

He [King George II] has waged cruel war against human nature itself, violating its most sacred rights of life and liberty in the persons of a distant people who never offended him, captivating and carrying them into slavery in another hemisphere, or to incur miserable death in their transportation thither. This piratical warfare, the opprobrium of infidel powers, is the warfare of the Christian king of Great Britain. Determined to keep open market where MEN should be bought and sold, he has prostituted his negative for suppressing every legislative attempt to prohibit or restrain this execrable commerce…. [emphasis his]

- Rick

[RS Davis]

Kender said:

Although I don't own any firearms myself, I have no problem with assault rifles being legal. I like the idea of the average citizen being as well armed as the military.

People use a lot of hyperbole about the Bush administration being fascist. The good news is that we get to vote. Those who don't like Bush can vote for Kerry, and power can be transferred to Kerry peacefully. Yay USA.

In other countries, there have been military coups, and facist governments that make people "disappear". Should that ever happen here, I like the idea of the citizens of this great country being able to go home, grab their M-16, AK-47, M-60 etc., and take the fight to the facists. I like that better than the idea of them going home and grabbing their 12 guage shotgun, .45 calibur handgun, or deer rifle.

I doubt I'll live to see the day when such action is required, but I believe as the founders of our nation did, that an armed population is a deterrent against tyranny.

Totally agree. The right to bear arms is and was concieved as the last check on government power.

- Rick

[outgirl]

RS said:

Actually, it would be a good idea for the blacks that hate Jefferson to look deeper into history, as they will find Jefferson, Adams, and Franklin to be some of their earliest and loneliest supporters. In fact, it was only after three days of heated debate that the representatives from South Carolina and Georgia forced Jefferson to strike the following passage from the Declaration:

He [King George II] has waged cruel war against human nature itself, violating its most sacred rights of life and liberty in the persons of a distant people who never offended him, captivating and carrying them into slavery in another hemisphere, or to incur miserable death in their transportation thither. This piratical warfare, the opprobrium of infidel powers, is the warfare of the Christian king of Great Britain. Determined to keep open market where MEN should be bought and sold, he has prostituted his negative for suppressing every legislative attempt to prohibit or restrain this execrable commerce…. [emphasis his]

- Rick

Wow. 3 whole days before selling out your beliefs.

[RS Davis]

outgirl said:

Wow. 3 whole days before selling out your beliefs.

Jefferson wasn't King of America. If they voted it be taken out, it had to be taken out. Should Jefferson have then walked away from the experiment in self-governance altogether? You disagree with Bush and his policies - are you a sell out for staying in this country?

= Rick

[pyro]

YES!

[RS Davis]

pyro said:

YES!

- Rick