|
|
Post by outgirl on Aug 13, 2004 8:23:41 GMT -5
So I heard on the news that the California supreme court overturned the city of San Francisco's city ordinance allowing gay marriages, against the mayor's wishes. Seems like we're getting our asses kicked from one end of the country to the other.
|
|
|
|
Post by outgirl on Aug 13, 2004 8:44:51 GMT -5
|
|
|
|
Post by RS Davis on Aug 13, 2004 9:41:27 GMT -5
So I heard on the news that the California supreme court overturned the city of San Francisco's city ordinance allowing gay marriages, against the mayor's wishes. Seems like we're getting our asses kicked from one end of the country to the other. It's temporary. Things will swing back your way, I am confident. - Rick |
|
|
|
Post by Kender on Aug 25, 2004 0:06:23 GMT -5
That's because the mayor of San Fransico is an idiot.
If state law says one thing, mayors and city councils cannot countermand it. Imagine if a mayor said "well, according to state law, you're not allowed to own a firearm, because of that murder conviction...but what the hell, I'm mayor, and I like you. Here's a concealed carry license"
If you disagree with a law, you have to actually work to get it changed.
|
|
|
|
Post by outgirl on Aug 26, 2004 1:32:51 GMT -5
I can't disagree with anything you said but I still think the city council acted bravely by defying state law to do what is morally right. I was reading interviews with some of the couples who lost their licenses and most of them said they didn't expect it to last more that a day or two. There have been some major defeats in the fight for equality but just the fact that it is such a hot button issue is a good thing to us. Especially for gays my age, we never expected to see legal marriages or civil unions. It wasn't that long ago that Clinton (our president) signed DOMA. The religious right is winniing a few battles right now but just the fact that the battles exist means that they are gonna lose the big one. You can't stop progress once people begin to be enlightened. I'm not a big states rights person but I understand that you have to start there. The loss in Mo was disappointing but not a surprise. The fact is that even a win means very little without federal recognition of our unions. Were just getting started and we're going to lose a little more here but in the end, it won't matter. I'm sure the mayor was smart enough to know this wouldn't fly but San Francisco is a very gay and progressive city. They took a stand and showed that nothing really earth shattering happened when they allowed us to marry. So they took back their licenses. What did we lose really. Not a fucking thing. The fact that you and I are even having this discussion is a win to me.
|
|
|
|
Post by Kender on Aug 28, 2004 9:42:06 GMT -5
How brave was it? It sounds like a political stunt to me, not something to be admired.
Unless they were complete idiots, they had to know that the licenses would not be worth the paper they were printed on because of state law.
San Francisco is well known for its homosexual population. It sounds to me as if they were playing games with the hopes and dreams of the homosexuals there. They did enough so that they could claim that homosexuals should vote for them, because they are trying to do something for the homosexuals. "Vote for me, I signed the licenses even though I knew the state wouldn't recognize them as valid because I didn't have the authority to countermand state law." That's not bravery. That's politics.
If the City Council and the Mayor of San Francisco are serious about this, they need to do something meaningful. They need to work to get the state law changed. Maybe that means they should use their money (not city money) to pay lobbyists. Maybe they should help organize, fund (again, no city money), and participate in a rally in Sacramento to let the state legislature see how many of their constituents want the law to change.
Maybe the lobbyists and the rallies could get the law to change, and then the mayor could sign licenses that wouldn't be worthless. If not, they could still tell the gay community that they made a genuine effort on their behalf.
The City Council and Mayor did not do anything praiseworthy. They played with peoples' hopes and dreams, they didn't work for peoples' hopes and dreams.
|
|
|
|
Post by outgirl on Aug 28, 2004 11:37:22 GMT -5
Gay couples have participated in so called civil unions for years that haven't been worth anything except to us.
Trust me, when the President is trying to ammed the US constitution to ban gay marriages, any politician who has the balls to openly support gay marriage will have our support.
|
|
|
|
Post by Kender on Aug 29, 2004 9:58:11 GMT -5
Outgirl,
I understand what you're saying - but I don't think the mayor or the city council of San Francisco have really openly supported gay marraige.
All they have done (to my knowledge, anyhow) is sign a few thousand worthless documents. Documents that they (unless they were complete idiots) knew to be worthless.
They got to pretend they supported gay marriage. Gays got to pretend they finally got married. California declared the marriages invalid because the mayor did not have the authority to countermand state law. In short, nothing changed. Nothing even came close to changing. The mayor and the city council did not support gay marriage. They engaged in a con game.
The gay community should not pat them on the back for a con game. The gay community should challenge the mayor and the city council. They should go to them and say something along these lines:
Mayor, Councilmen, you indicated that you support gay marriage. You "married" four thousand gay couples. State law prohibits same sex marriage, though, and mayors and city councils do not have the authority to countermand state law. Those 4,000 people who thought they were married, are in fact, not married. They were victims of a sham. You played with their hopes and dreams. Really, they should sue you for deceiving them into thinking they were married. You should be ashamed of yourselves. Forgiveness and redemption are possible, however. Show us that you are sincere about supporting gay marriage. No more mind games. No more political con games. We have a plan to organize a rally in Sacramento to show the state legislature how many people want the law changed...there are a few ways that you could help...
|
|
|
|
Post by whatever on Aug 29, 2004 10:43:38 GMT -5
Outgirl, I understand what you're saying - but I don't think the mayor or the city council of San Francisco have really openly supported gay marraige. All they have done (to my knowledge, anyhow) is sign a few thousand worthless documents. Documents that they (unless they were complete idiots) knew to be worthless. They got to pretend they supported gay marriage. Gays got to pretend they finally got married. California declared the marriages invalid because the mayor did not have the authority to countermand state law. In short, nothing changed. Nothing even came close to changing. The mayor and the city council did not support gay marriage. They engaged in a con game. The gay community should not pat them on the back for a con game. The gay community should challenge the mayor and the city council. They should go to them and say something along these lines: Mayor, Councilmen, you indicated that you support gay marriage. You "married" four thousand gay couples. State law prohibits same sex marriage, though, and mayors and city councils do not have the authority to countermand state law. Those 4,000 people who thought they were married, are in fact, not married. They were victims of a sham. You played with their hopes and dreams. Really, they should sue you for deceiving them into thinking they were married. You should be ashamed of yourselves. Forgiveness and redemption are possible, however. Show us that you are sincere about supporting gay marriage. No more mind games. No more political con games. We have a plan to organize a rally in Sacramento to show the state legislature how many people want the law changed...there are a few ways that you could help... Hmmm I think I don't know all the ins and outs of the issue, or the details as well as I should, but, I have a completely different take on this than you do, Grem. When I heard about the marriages, and saw pictures of couples, and then listen to the comments, both good and bad, it helped to put it in real, human perspective to me. Not just a couple of strange looking people, nothing aberant or sick. Just normal looking folks being together, with their families, friends. Getting married for love. That's what I saw. So, it may have been an abortive attempt to allow marriage, or a shallow play to the movement, which cost those who alllowed it little, but, it also placed on the world stage the people, the feelings, the faces, and just how many thousands believe it should be a right. From all walks of life, over all demographics. Though it was overturned, in my mind it gave a legitimacy to the idea, an outlet for validation of the feelings and the beliefs of those who want this. Who want their spouse, legal to all the world, and let none question their bond. An example of agreeing to disagree, and to accept those with different beliefs, different feelings, different lives. Those beliefs, feelings and life styles are VALID and widely held personal interpretations of rights to life, liberty, and pursuit of happieness, in it's most basic and raw form; these moral issues should NOT be a part of law. The right to marry ANYONE should be within the scope of human rights; that to allow those people to marry was a higher and more correct interpretation of the United States Constitution, in that the Feds have no right to determine that definition of marriage, and that according to state constitution, there is no reason within human rights to repress these marriages. Legally, marraige is about property and entitlements. Personally, ideally, it should be about love. Myself, I go with the love concept. And no one should have say over, for example, who I give/share my property and entitlements; government agencies of various sorts get enough already anyway. Screw what's mine and only mine I'd do with it what I please, and that's all the legal issues you've got with marriage and same-sex marriage. What's the worse I could do? What's the worse anyone could do? Change their minds? OH Please... I say...imho...that the people who hold those marriage certificates will cherish them. Will know that someday, someday they will be recognized. That they are true, and that they were married, on that day, for all to see. Legal, binding, and true. Never to be denied, only postphoned. Because, they know they should be allowed the marriage, and that someday, our nation will recognize that. Many of us already do. History will tell. I think they, those few thousand marriage certificates signed by officials and stamped with authority, will be one among the collection of our sacred documents, many years from now when we're all history. |
|
|
|
Post by outgirl on Aug 29, 2004 12:05:38 GMT -5
Whatever...
That was so beautifully stated that it nearly brought tears to my eyes.
I especially liked this:
I'm glad that you understand this. We aren't just fighting the US gov't. We are fighting deeply rooted religious conviction. For so many yrs, middle America has known of us only from the distortions of the church and the annual photo ops of Pride each yr. And no, I'm not talking about the large PFLAG delegation or Gay Teachers Asssociation. Apparently, they aren't nearly as photogenic as the drag queens or the dykes on bikes. We are the sons and daugters of America and until recently, we had no face. Now we do. Our biggest battles are not going to be fought in the courthouse. They will be fought and won in the hearts of ordinary Americans.
Kender...
This isn't just about California law. Do you really believe that newly married gays in Massachusettes feel any more secure with their licenses. Hell no they don't. They know they're just a judicial appointment away from having it taken away. We take nothing for granted. If the marriages that took place in SF made even one person in Mo. question traditional fundamentalist thinking, then that is worth it to me. Without federal recognition of our unions, state law is extremely limited for us. As I said, our battles are going to be won in the hearts and minds of the people. When Ammend 2 in Mo. passed by 70%, it was so depressing for me. But then I went to work and all of my coworkers told me that they voted against it. One girl told me.."I voted for you" That is how I know we are winning regardless of how it may look politically. The more we are out to our friends and neighbors, the closer we are to achieving true equality.
|
|
|
|
Post by Kender on Aug 29, 2004 13:34:17 GMT -5
Well, you've certainly given me a different perspective on it...even though what happened in California and what happened in Massachusetts did not have the same effect for me that it had for others. It's still an abstract concept for me.
So maybe the gay community does have reason to give the mayor and city council of San Francisco thanks. It had a "hearts and mind" effect on at least one person (whatever). For me, it was an occassion to roll my eyes and think "who the heck does he think he is, issuing illegal licenses?" rather than an occassion to think "Wow, these gays are dressed like ordinary people and everything, I guess they're not all freaks" or "Aww, isn't that a cute couple". I just saw a political stunt. I still only see a political stunt, in fact. I just recognize that others see it differently than I do. Go figure.
Going for the hearts and minds of people is a wise move. Once you have their hearts and minds, the laws will follow. (Somehow I'm reminded of the saying "If you have 'em by the balls, their hearts and minds will follow", but that doesn't quite apply here...) ;D
As for our fine state, I think the gay community abdicated before it was put to a vote. I saw all kinds of ads for Amendment 1, but I did not see one ad about Amendment 2.
Where was the ad that showed Adam and Steve (sorry, couldn't resist stealing that from the infamous retort) saying something to this effect:
"Hi, I'm Adam. I work at the bank, I go to church. I get involved in my community to help make it a better place for everyone in it. I can't marry the person I love (enter Steve) because of a state law, and now you're being asked to reinforce that state law with an amendment to the Missouri Constitution. Please, vote no on Amendment 2. I want to marry the man I love."
Where was the commercial with Linda and Sue, showing that they're ordinary people (not the "in your face" freaks at the Gay Pride parades) who love each other and want to get married?
Where was the commercial that showed Adam, Steve, Linda, Sue, and the other homosexual couples as ordinary human beings wanting to get married?
They didn't exist. There was no effort for the hearts and minds of Missourians. There was no human face. Not one. So how can anyone be surprised that Amendment 2 passed, given the overwhelming lack of effort to defeat it?
|
|
|
|
Post by outgirl on Aug 29, 2004 17:08:00 GMT -5
Oh I couldn't agree with you more. I am so angry at the gays and lesbians who didn't bother to vote. We have got to get more active politically. I'm not trying to make excuses but I've been trying to understand why so many gays are not more active. A lot of gay men don't even bother to vote. I think it has to do with feeling like we have lived our lives on the outskirts of society for so long. Until recently, we were never included in the political process. Clinton changed that. Now it's up to us. I hate that Kerry doesn't have to earn our vote. He has it unconditionally for the most part and he knows it. If I didn't hate the Bush regime so, I might seriously consider voting 3rd party just to show that they can't take our votes for granted. But this election is too important to risk everything should Bush be reelected. I guess the abysmal voting record of gays could be compared to the poor voter turnout of Black Americans for so long in this country. That is changing though. The grass roots effort to get the hip hop generation registered and involved in the process so far appears successful. We'll see come November. We have a lot of work to do. You'll get no arguement from me on that.
|
|
|
|
Post by whatever on Aug 29, 2004 18:23:03 GMT -5
Whatever... That was so beautifully stated that it nearly brought tears to my eyes. Thank you outgirl. When I think, about...how it must feel to be in love with someone so deeply that you want to marry them, even when the whole world seems to be against it, only to find that some people not only don't care how you feel, but practically spit on the whole idea, as if they'd like to spit on you. No matter how meaningful the relationship. Like, when some people get old, or sick, or injured...there might not even be any "sinful" sex involved anymore, just like with any couple. Still, the insane hateful attitude. So hurtful. It hurts me to know how it is, that it's like that. In matters of the heart and body. Tears people up, rips them apart inside, and they didn't do a single thing "wrong" to deserve to feel that way. Gremlin, I don't include you in the hateful and hurtful category, btw, and hope it went without saying  |
|
|
|
Post by outgirl on Aug 29, 2004 20:13:13 GMT -5
No matter how meaningful the relationship. Like, when some people get old, or sick, or injured...there might not even be any "sinful" sex involved anymore, just like with any couple. Still, the insane hateful attitude. So hurtful. It hurts me to know how it is, that it's like that. In matters of the heart and body. Tears people up, rips them apart inside, and they didn't do a single thing "wrong" to deserve to feel that way You do understand. It's the same as any other marriage. My ex and I were together for almost 13 yrs. Like any other long term relationship, the sex has it's ups and its slumps. It's inevitable that life sometimes gets in the way of the sex part. Much as we'd like, you just can't fuck 24/7 year end year out, especially when there are kids involved. We always had her neice and nephew (my godchildren) at our house. They spent 3-4 days/wk with us. Sometimes you're just tired. Spend the evening watching TV with the family and then pass out. Isn't that a pretty normal life. People like to equate being gay with sex but it's much more than that. Straight or gay, it takes more than sex to make a relationship work. It takes love yes, but also commitment. The only reason that some straight folks can't identify with our fight is because they refuse to really look at who we are. If they did, they'd see. We are just like them. How would they feel if they were denied visitation and power of attorney rights for their spouse. And yes, some of us are getting older. Our spouses are not eligible for our social security and death benefits. You all know how hard it can be to really make a marriage work year after year. Now just imagine how much more difficult when there is no support and everything around you invalidates your relationship. The fact that there are any gay couples that manage to survive is amazing and should be celebrated, not put down. |
|
|
|
Post by whatever on Aug 29, 2004 21:56:17 GMT -5
You do understand. It's the same as any other marriage. My ex and I were together for almost 13 yrs. Like any other long term relationship, the sex has it's ups and its slumps. It's inevitable that life sometimes gets in the way of the sex part. Much as we'd like, you just can't fuck 24/7 year end year out, especially when there are kids involved. We always had her neice and nephew (my godchildren) at our house. They spent 3-4 days/wk with us. Sometimes you're just tired. Spend the evening watching TV with the family and then pass out. Isn't that a pretty normal life. People like to equate being gay with sex but it's much more than that. Straight or gay, it takes more than sex to make a relationship work. It takes love yes, but also commitment. The only reason that some straight folks can't identify with our fight is because they refuse to really look at who we are. If they did, they'd see. We are just like them. How would they feel if they were denied visitation and power of attorney rights for their spouse. And yes, some of us are getting older. Our spouses are not eligible for our social security and death benefits. You all know how hard it can be to really make a marriage work year after year. Now just imagine how much more difficult when there is no support and everything around you invalidates your relationship. The fact that there are any gay couples that manage to survive is amazing and should be celebrated, not put down. outgirl, what I don't understand is how other folks don't seem to get it. I know most do, but the ones in groups, in churches and whatnot, who don't understand. All is takes is one good friend, or a relative, a coworker...to know someone personally, to understand. I can't believe that many people don't know gay people, although probably many don't realize how many people are gay that they assumed otherwise. I like what you said about celebrating long time commitment of a gay couple. I totally agree with that. And it's not as if anyone's giving them any special considerations or tax breaks. I remember, that episode of Ellen Degenerous, where she had the big cake to say, what was it, "Hurray, you're gay" or something like that. Because, it's thought of as that awful thing, to have to tell the family and the world. But she was saying, hey, no one ever celebrates us! We should! And I was thinking, Yes, celebrate! Celebrate a day when you can say you are gay, to people who will care, and be happy that you don't have to hide or feel bad about anything. Not feel apart or put down by your friends, and other people who know that...homosexuality is just a normal part of sex, and you shouldn't have to lie about who your partner is. That's all  I like how she turns it to the perspective of the person at issue, who has now come to terms with who and what she is, and feels the strength and desire to share the fact with everyone. I mean, it's such a totally "straight" attitude, to think it's a bummer that someone is gay, someone comes "out of the closet". What a narrow view! It must be liberating, in a way, for a person to say things like "Well, screw it then, that's how I am that that's just too damn bad if you don't like it. " Some people lke to view me as pc pandering, but, I've always felt this way. I'm on the side of the underdog everytime, somehow I can stick up for someone else ten time easier than for myself. I've always admired people strong enough and brave enough to come out with being homosexual. I used to get into fights about racism at school and summer camp too, as I recall. I come by it honestly, I think. And too, I was a victim in my own way for long enough, just in school, to really, really hate bullies (one got me fired the other day, bastard) and despise scape goating and lies. That's where my hatred lies. Gee, I have to shut up, I'm just rattling on. A straight married white woman shoudln't wax endlessly about stuff I've never had to had to do anything but argue about Though if it ever involved more than arguing, with me or mine, I'd back it up with interest. Some things are not tolerated in my home. Racism is on the list too. Used to tick my ex's relatives off, haha. Hey...what about next weekend though? Eh? Nudge, nudge?? I'll pull up lots of weeds out back so you can actually see the dogs run around the yard Gallop, whatever |
|
