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Post by Kender on Aug 29, 2004 23:31:46 GMT -5
Oh I couldn't agree with you more. I am so angry at the gays and lesbians who didn't bother to vote. I guess there's that too - that didn't occur to me, simply because I have no idea what the gay voting record is. My point is that there was no effort at all to present gays as "ordinary human beings" who want to marry the person they love (which is what whatever said was important about the invalid SF marriages) - no effort to convince Missouri heterosexuals to vote "no", which is something I would think that homosexuals would recognize as an important thing to do, simply because they cannot count on the gay vote (even if every gay voted) to defeat something like Amendment 2. Homosexuals are...after all...a minority. |
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Post by outgirl on Aug 30, 2004 5:58:48 GMT -5
I guess there's that too - that didn't occur to me, simply because I have no idea what the gay voting record is. My point is that there was no effort at all to present gays as "ordinary human beings" who want to marry the person they love (which is what whatever said was important about the invalid SF marriages) - no effort to convince Missouri heterosexuals to vote "no", which is something I would think that homosexuals would recognize as an important thing to do, simply because they cannot count on the gay vote (even if every gay voted) to defeat something like Amendment 2. Homosexuals are...after all...a minority. I did my best dude. I talked to everyone I knew. Sent emails reminding people to vote. I talk gay politics a lot, with everyone. I'm one of those outspoken gay chicks that can annoy the hell out of certain people (closeted or conservative gays for example) My ex for example. Whatever. I don't care what other people think of me. I'm generally respected on the job. But I know you are right of course. There were some measures. I received a few phone calls and a very pleasant gay man going door to door in my neighborhood. But not enough. This needs to change. You are right. |
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Post by Kender on Aug 30, 2004 8:53:08 GMT -5
You agree? Well darn...now what?
Ah, I know.
I'm sure for people like yourself, this change cannot come quick enough, but I think it's actually a good thing that the change is slowed down a bit. Yes, I know - I can almost hear you saying "Slow down? How much slower can..."
With some issues, such as the abortion issue, the answer has been handed down from the courts, regardless of what people want. It doesn't matter if 75% of a state wants to outlaw abortion outright, they're out of luck because 5 to 9 (don't feel like looking it up at the moment) people said "you cannot do that".
The issue hasn't gone away, it's just gained a couple decades of frustration and resentment.
I'm rather detatched from the question of homosexual marriage. Right or wrong, it's more or less an abstract concept for me. I see what happened in Massachusetts, Missouri, and California...and I smile. I smile because I see our country engaging the issue, and trying to sort it out.
Hearts and minds. That's what it's about. If the hearts and minds of America are changed so that they can accept homosexual marriages as valid, then the laws will flow from that. Maybe there will be frustration and resentment from some segments of the population, but if our country has the discussion first and changes as a result of that discussion (rather than as a result of the politics of 9 people), that frustration and resentment will be minimized...and I think that's a healthier way for our country to change.
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Post by outgirl on Aug 30, 2004 14:18:47 GMT -5
You agree? Well darn...now what? Beef?...Where's the beef? None here dude. I may not agree with everything you say but I respect your opinion. There is a line that can be crossed where that may not be true, but you haven't crossed it. I'm sure for people like yourself, this change cannot come quick enough, but I think it's actually a good thing that the change is slowed down a bit. Yes, I know - I can almost hear you saying "Slow down? How much slower can..." Actually, it has been changing so fast. I'm 48. I've spent my whole life feeling like an outsider. I guess I always thought the world would change someday, but not in my lifetime. The changes we've made in just 10 yrs. have been incredible really. Remember Ellen's coming out show. Chrysler pulled it's adds. OMG. Would that happen today? No. With some issues, such as the abortion issue, the answer has been handed down from the courts, regardless of what people want. It doesn't matter if 75% of a state wants to outlaw abortion outright, they're out of luck because 5 to 9 (don't feel like looking it up at the moment) people said "you cannot do that". The issue hasn't gone away, it's just gained a couple decades of frustration and resentment. While I agree, I also think the court has the responsibility to defend the constitution even if the people aren't ready for change. I don't want to touch abortion right now, but I think of the Texas sodomy laws recently struck down. I'm not sure how most Texans would have voted on this. I know how their preachers would have told them to vote. The law was wrong. Period. They shouldn't need a precedent from the people to do what is right. Ammendment 2 is wrong. It is discrimination and is an afront to the constitution. If 70% of a state wants laws passed that are unconstitutional, there is no choice but to fight it out in the court. I'm rather detatched from the question of homosexual marriage. Right or wrong, it's more or less an abstract concept for me. I see what happened in Massachusetts, Missouri, and California...and I smile. I smile because I see our country engaging the issue, and trying to sort it out. That is what I keep saying to Rick and other libs on this site. It's all a question of perspective. I could never believe in the libertarian ideology. Nothing in my makeup would allow me to think that way. I don't expect a 30 yr old white man to view affirmative action in the same way a 30 yr old black man would. It is the experiences in our lives that dictate our views. I apprerciate your frankness regarding the concept of gay marriage as being "abstract" I guess that's why I am here now having this discussion with you. To show a different perspective. Hearts and minds. That's what it's about. If the hearts and minds of America are changed so that they can accept homosexual marriages as valid, then the laws will flow from that. Maybe there will be frustration and resentment from some segments of the population, but if our country has the discussion first and changes as a result of that discussion (rather than as a result of the politics of 9 people), that frustration and resentment will be minimized...and I think that's a healthier way for our country to change. I agree. That is why it is so important to be out. To have a face. Then we become your neighbors, your co workers, doctors, nurses and teachers, not just some abstract idea to discuss on a political forum. |
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Post by RS Davis on Aug 30, 2004 16:00:39 GMT -5
Kender Wrote:
Where was the ad that showed Adam and Steve (sorry, couldn't resist stealing that from the infamous retort) saying something to this effect:
"Hi, I'm Adam. I work at the bank, I go to church. I get involved in my community to help make it a better place for everyone in it. I can't marry the person I love (enter Steve) because of a state law, and now you're being asked to reinforce that state law with an amendment to the Missouri Constitution. Please, vote no on Amendment 2. I want to marry the man I love."
Oh I couldn't agree with you more. I am so angry at the gays and lesbians who didn't bother to vote. We have got to get more active politically. I'm not trying to make excuses but I've been trying to understand why so many gays are not more active. A lot of gay men don't even bother to vote. I think it has to do with feeling like we have lived our lives on the outskirts of society for so long. Until recently, we were never included in the political process. Clinton changed that. Now it's up to us. I hate that Kerry doesn't have to earn our vote. He has it unconditionally for the most part and he knows it. If I didn't hate the Bush regime so, I might seriously consider voting 3rd party just to show that they can't take our votes for granted. But this election is too important to risk everything should Bush be reelected. I guess the abysmal voting record of gays could be compared to the poor voter turnout of Black Americans for so long in this country. That is changing though. The grass roots effort to get the hip hop generation registered and involved in the process so far appears successful. We'll see come November. We have a lot of work to do. You'll get no arguement from me on that.  |
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