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Post by RS Davis on Dec 8, 2004 11:06:32 GMT -5
Ron Paul Denounces National ID Card
Congressman Ron Paul today denounced the national ID card provisions contained in the intelligence bill being voted on in the U.S. House of Representatives, while urging his colleagues to reject the bill and its new layers of needless bureaucracy.
“National ID cards are not proper in a free society,” Paul stated. “This is America, not Soviet Russia. The federal government should never be allowed to demand papers from American citizens, and it certainly has no constitutional authority to do so.”
“A national identification card, in whatever form it may take, will allow the federal government to inappropriately monitor the movements and transactions of every American,” Paul continued. “History shows that governments inevitably use such power in harmful ways. The 9-11 commission, whose recommendations underlie this bill, has called for internal screening points where identification will be demanded. Domestic travel restrictions are the hallmark of authoritarian states, not free nations. It is just a matter of time until those who refuse to carry the new licenses will be denied the ability to drive or board an airplane.”
“Nationalizing standards for drivers licenses and birth certificates, and linking them together via a national database, creates a national ID system pure and simple. Proponents of the national ID understand that the public remains wary of the scheme, so they attempt to claim they’re merely creating new standards for existing state IDs. Nonsense! This legislation imposes federal standards in a federal bill, and it creates a federalized ID regardless of whether the ID itself is still stamped with the name of your state.”
“Those who are willing to allow the government to establish a Soviet-style internal passport system because they think it will make us safer are terribly mistaken,” Paul concluded. “Subjecting every citizen to surveillance and screening points actually will make us less safe, not in the least because it will divert resources away from tracking and apprehending terrorists and deploy them against innocent Americans! Every conservative who believes in constitutional restraints on government should reject the authoritarian national ID card and the nonsensical intelligence bill itself.”
December 8, 2004
Dr. Ron Paul is a Republican member of Congress from Texas.
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Post by whatever on Dec 10, 2004 12:57:52 GMT -5
With current trends, it's just been a matter of time. What's sad, to me, is that it appears the reasons for the objections are now exactly the right reasons. That is to say, objections to the id due to genuine fears of our governments controls and interferences into our lives are so much more a concern now than they were say five years ago. Now they DO read email, monitor phones, put cameras up all over the damn place...yet this populace will still laugh off the concept of the government spying on them. Fairly well laugh at the idea of our government having or being capable of using that id system in ways we don't (currently) approve of. Such as, oh I don't know, restricting travel.
Well, the author already said it, didnt he?
Checking for papers at state borders. Yeah, it sounds silly, until you think about sobriety and drug check points. I can easily see the case being made for it. Add to the fun the fact that trying to run away from one of just these checkpoints can get you chased, and then charged if you evade.
When the time comes - and it will - that measures on state borders are deemed necessary for "national security", the same arguments will be made as are being made for this national id card. The same folks will be laughing about how "silly it is" for anyone to worry about misuse of our personal information. I mean, if you carry the national id card...you shouldn't have any trouble crossing state lines, right? Reich.
I say, again, the absolute latest time to leave is when they start making noises about not letting you leave. I really worry that this nation will follow this dark path farther than any of us want, even it it doesn't turn into a nightmare scenerio. Though for a lot of folks here, it already is; we're already a prison nation.
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Post by RS Davis on Dec 10, 2004 14:49:40 GMT -5
It passed. All I see is one defeat for freedom after another.
- Rick
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Post by whatever on Dec 10, 2004 14:53:46 GMT -5
It passed. All I see is one defeat for freedom after another. - Rick Yes. Still think I'm crazy for wanting to move out of the country?? ;D just kidding, you never said I was crazy  |
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AppleJax
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"A" is for Apple; "J" is for Jax.
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Post by AppleJax on Dec 11, 2004 15:16:35 GMT -5
It passed. All I see is one defeat for freedom after another. - Rick First, I feel compelled to point out your poll is a little weighted. You basically have 3 NO's and a YES masquerading as four seperate answers. Don't get me wrong, it's funny, but hardly scientific.  As far as the card, I don't believe any more of our freedom has been taken away. Our state ID's have been our defacto national ID's up until now anyway. What's the difference? |
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Post by RS Davis on Dec 11, 2004 15:39:36 GMT -5
First, I feel compelled to point out your poll is a little weighted. You basically have 3 NO's and a YES masquerading as four seperate answers. Don't get me wrong, it's funny, but hardly scientific. As far as the card, I don't believe any more of our freedom has been taken away. Our state ID's have been our defacto national ID's up until now anyway. What's the difference? Yeah, I wasn't really going for scientific... ;D The major difference is that all the IDs will be held in a national database. It won't be long until, like Soviet Russia, we can't even travel around in our own country without showing our "papers" to some government official. It totally freaks me out. - Rick |
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Post by whatever on Dec 11, 2004 17:18:29 GMT -5
Yes AJ, that's my point too, what Rick said. And HI by the way How's going? I just found out I'm an Aspie, and it's so cool! I now know why I am so obnoxious. Oh happy day! Our ability to fly on commercial airliners has already been restricted to the "legal"travelers. If you're in a position to not want your record checked out, yourself checked out, fondled, x-rayed and checked against a list of felons...you don't fly. Trains and buses are next, all in the name of national security. Finally, with the national id card, they can monitor and control interstate travel. Then, my friend, we're screwed. That at least I can promise you. Because you see, along with the increased restrictions, there usually comes an increase in laws - laws we're loddly ikely to break...like certain books or other materials, harsher controlled substances laws, traffic tickets, child support, tax evasion, music theft laws?...and so we won't all be so "legal" anymore. Without even seeing it coming. I hope this doesn't sound too outlandish to you, because I don't mean it to come across that way. We already have more people in prison than any other nation, and it isn't an inproving situation. So I see one big nightmare on our people from that. I do wonder, in my most cynical heart of hearts, if they'll try or even manage to create debtors prison. Just a matter of time? |
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AppleJax
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"A" is for Apple; "J" is for Jax.
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Post by AppleJax on Dec 12, 2004 14:52:37 GMT -5
Congratulations on your Asperger's Syndrome! You seem more empathic than a typical Aspie, of what I know of the condition. I didn't grasp on the other forum that you yourself had been diagnosed with Asperger's. I thought maybe you had just suddenly developed a new affection for Aspies!  As far as the ID cards, you guys make great points but I still don't really see a problem. I agree we have too many people in jail. However, I think the way to address that is to decriminalize drugs, not make it harder for the gov't to find us. Fact is, we do live in more dangerous times. Yes, Bush has milked that and taken full advantage, but that doesn't mean we're not at risk. This is a very small thing IMO that will make a big difference. 9/11 couldn't have happened if this were in place in '01. |
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Post by RS Davis on Dec 12, 2004 15:05:21 GMT -5
I think the way to address that is to decriminalize drugs, not make it harder for the gov't to find us. God, the last thing I want is to make it easier for the government to track and find me. What about the "right to privacy" that my pro-choice and anti-sodomy law confederates find so important? - Rick |
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AppleJax
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"A" is for Apple; "J" is for Jax.
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Post by AppleJax on Dec 12, 2004 15:08:00 GMT -5
Your right to privacy doesn't include a right to be a criminal. The idea is that the government's ability to find you wouldn't matter if things that you're worried about them finding you for (marijuana for instance) weren't crimes.
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Post by RS Davis on Dec 12, 2004 17:02:29 GMT -5
Your right to privacy doesn't include a right to be a criminal. The idea is that the government's ability to find you wouldn't matter if things that you're worried about them finding you for (marijuana for instance) weren't crimes. I didn't say anything about being a criminal. It's not the idea of being caught with a dimebag (RIP, Darryl). It's the idea of our government tracking and following peaceful citizens that gives me the creeps. The first step of any authoritarian tyranny begins with increased measures for tracking peaceful citizens. It happened in Germany, in the USSR, Cuba, China.... - Rick |
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Post by whatever on Dec 12, 2004 20:14:31 GMT -5
Congratulations on your Asperger's Syndrome! You seem more empathic than a typical Aspie, of what I know of the condition. I didn't grasp on the other forum that you yourself had been diagnosed with Asperger's. I thought maybe you had just suddenly developed a new affection for Aspies! Thanks : ) I've gone over the criteria, and, it's much easier to list what I don't match, I'm so classic-case. It's bizarre to read the same things I've been saying all my life. It's mind blowing. Not to be trite, but in my mind, it parallels what you might have felt when you realized you were gay. Like...wow, THAT's what I am. NOW I get it. I'm not just friggin nuts You know, it's not that we don't have empathy...just that we can't express it in a clear way. I do certainly have a new affection for a new group. Narcasistic of me? ;D Actually, I've always been called too sensitive, having learned to interpret constantly, I get lost doing that when I try to talk to people. It's overwhelming. Embarassing. Silly. But not because I'm some kind of idiot!! That is SO cool As far as the ID cards, you guys make great points but I still don't really see a problem. I agree we have too many people in jail. However, I think the way to address that is to decriminalize drugs, not make it harder for the gov't to find us. Fact is, we do live in more dangerous times. Yes, Bush has milked that and taken full advantage, but that doesn't mean we're not at risk. This is a very small thing IMO that will make a big difference. 9/11 couldn't have happened if this were in place in '01. All I can say to this, my friend, is that on a personal level, we have more to fear from these clowns thinking they're "in charge" of us than the nuts in the middle east that never liked us in the first place. OUR fools in power are hurting their own people; we are dealing with evil intentions. Consider: One more terrorstic event could easily enable passage of laws such as state-to-state checkpoints, and more passive monitoring in public. And, think about how much that power over people can be abused? These things, they're never done in one's own country for our OWN good...an agenda with a vested interest which does not necessarily include what the little people want. And with this bunch of crooks, I don't put it past them to allow an "event" to occur. Just my conspiracy theory; I think 911 was allowed. We ARE becoming prewar Germany. Whether we go all the way remains to be seen. That's how I feel about it, anyway. My two cents. |
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AppleJax
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Post by AppleJax on Dec 12, 2004 22:06:47 GMT -5
I didn't say anything about being a criminal. It's not the idea of being caught with a dimebag (RIP, Darryl). It's the idea of our government tracking and following peaceful citizens that gives me the creeps. The first step of any authoritarian tyranny begins with increased measures for tracking peaceful citizens. It happened in Germany, in the USSR, Cuba, China.... - Rick There is no reason to believe the government would be tracking peaceful citizens. The database would simply be used for crime suspects. A database already exists for people who have already had encounters with the law. I don't expect anything to really change. |
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AppleJax
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"A" is for Apple; "J" is for Jax.
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Post by AppleJax on Dec 12, 2004 22:13:36 GMT -5
Thanks : ) I've gone over the criteria, and, it's much easier to list what I don't match, I'm so classic-case. It's bizarre to read the same things I've been saying all my life. It's mind blowing. Not to be trite, but in my mind, it parallels what you might have felt when you realized you were gay. Like...wow, THAT's what I am. NOW I get it. I'm not just friggin nuts You know, it's not that we don't have empathy...just that we can't express it in a clear way. I do certainly have a new affection for a new group. Narcasistic of me? ;D Actually, I've always been called too sensitive, having learned to interpret constantly, I get lost doing that when I try to talk to people. It's overwhelming. Embarassing. Silly. But not because I'm some kind of idiot!! That is SO cool That is cool. "Congratulations on your new self-discovery" would have been a better way to put it I suppose! |
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pyrosecretninjalogin
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Post by pyrosecretninjalogin on Dec 13, 2004 9:50:35 GMT -5
fixed I'd think it's safe to say we've gone past the prewar part. I'm just waiting for the internment camps for suspected non-patriots. |
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