*head exploding*

[maylily]

I am so angry, disgusted and repulsed I can't even think straight. I feel like my head is about to explode.

Just read this article (try www.salon.com/news/cookie.html to bypass the day pass. Go to the link first then paste the cookie link into the address bar) at salon.com. Some choice tidbits:

"If passed, Issue 1 will force Ohio's cities and universities to stop offering domestic partner benefits, including health insurance. Right now, such benefits are offered by the city of Columbus, Ohio's Miami University, Ohio University and Ohio State University, the largest university in America. Cleveland Heights has a domestic partnership registry, and some Ohio public schools give gay employees family leave to care for ailing partners. Issue 1 would probably mean they could no longer do so. Because Ohio doesn't allow two-parent gay adoptions, Reeves had to go through a lengthy legal process to become Frannie and Charlies' legal co-parent. Her lawyer told her that if Issue 1 passes, her parental rights could be nullified.

The amendment's impact won't stop there. "Because the state can't create any legal status for unmarried couples, it's very possible that domestic-violence protection orders could no longer be used if there's a domestic violence situation with an unmarried couple," says Alan Melamed, an attorney and chairman of the anti-Issue 1 group Ohioans Protecting the Constitution. Private companies can continue to offer domestic partner benefits, he adds, but "if the employee feels that those benefits were being improperly denied, an employee won't be able to go to court and enforce those benefits."

Issue 1 is only two sentences long, but there's a world of uncertainty in it. While the first sentence simply decrees that marriage is between a man and a woman, the second says, "This state and its political subdivisions shall not create or recognize a legal status for relationships of unmarried individuals that intends to approximate the design, qualities, significance or effect of marriage." "

This is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard. This will impact people who choose not to marry as well as homosexuals who can't marry. This will effectively make second class citizens of thousands and thousands of people. This crap isn't just gay marriage, it is against gay life!


"USA Today reports that Rod Parsley, pastor of Ohio's 12,000-member World Harvest Church, has "assembled a list of 100,000 Ohio acolytes, all of whom will be called by the World Harvest Church on the eve of the election, reminding them to vote." The newspaper pointed out that Parsley held a September meeting of 200 Ohio ministers to explain that they could advocate for the supposedly nonpartisan Issue 1 without losing their nonprofit tax status. "

What in hell is anyone doing belonging to a church with 12,000 members? What kind of a freaking church is that? Its not my definition of a church...my church is a sanctuary, a home, a place of peace, reflection and worship - how can you be a true community of faith when you don't know the people...when your minister doesn't know your name and your face? *shudder*


"Despite all the national backing, the driving force behind Issue 1 is an Ohioan named Phil Burress, founder of a group called Citizens for Community Values. A thrice-married Cincinnati man who describes himself as a former pornography addict redeemed by Jesus, Burress has spent much of the last decade fighting gay rights. He was involved in getting Cincinnati to pass a 1994 amendment to its city charter, making it the only metropolis in the country to ban laws protecting gays and lesbians. He's also been active in trying to get Ohio hotels to stop offering pay-per-view porn."

He's been married three times and wants to talk about the sanctity of marriage? I'm going to be ill....

""Even if Ohio would be better off, gays should not be allowed to marry," he says, because homosexuality is a sin that "merits discrimination." In fact, he says, "I support and endorse the criminalization of homosexuality.""

What?

"During a question-and-answer period, someone says they'd once heard Johnston call for the execution of gays and lesbians. He vigorously denies the charge. Later, he tells me that the decision to put gays to death is a matter best left up to the states. "If we ever had a nation sufficiently Christian" to make homosexuality illegal, he says, imposing capital punishment for homosexuality would be a subject for "an in-house debate. There were capital crimes in the Bible, and that would be something debated.""

Give me a freakin' break!

And these people are freakin' scary

Listen, I don't know for sure if homosexuality is "right" or "wrong". There are too many ambiguities with the texts in the Bible. So, it is not for me to make that judgement. It is for the person individually with God. And I keep coming back to one question, "If homosexuality is so evil, why does it exist? Why would God burden a person with something that He considers evil?" And the only answer, to me, for that question is that it is homosexual acts relating to worship of pagan gods...not homosexuality per se. Anyway, when I read things like this salon article and the Minutemen website, feelings of selfishness emerge. I remember something I've heard and read time and time again. There's no way it could be said better. THIS is why it all has to be fought...

First they came for the Jews and I did not speak out because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the Communists and I did not speak out because I was not a Communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists and I did not speak out
because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for me and there was no one left to speak out for me.

Pastor Martin Niemöller

[whatever]

May, you are so right, absolutely right on target.

I agree with your outrage. It's so bizarre it's unreal. I can see the arguments already, but that's so extreme, I don't expect much support. I HOPE!

I especially love that last quote. You're right, that does say it the best that I've heard too. I'm going to keep that one.

Sad, sad day in this nation if it passes. Kerry sees this as a states issue, which is better than Bush, but still. I am conflicted, because while it can be seen that way, letting the states set their own marriage laws, we can also look at slavery, and see it for the unconstitutional situation that it was. Does anyone think that should have been left as a state's right?

I should look up more info on the law and constitution, because I don't have enough off-the-top info in my head to argue this.

How sick is that though; they're actually talking about rolling back partner benefits, saying they would be then be illegal. Sick. Just sick. What selfish monsters.

[outgirl]

This is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard. This will impact people who choose not to marry as well as homosexuals who can't marry. This will effectively make second class citizens of thousands and thousands of people. This crap isn't just gay marriage, it is against gay life!

Yes may... you got it. Even most of our straight supporters don't really understand this. We are not paranoid conspiracy theorists. There really is a conspiracy to make us criminals again. It's not just marriage that they want to stop. That's why I am oppossed to the issue being decided by the states. I'll celebrate the victories and mourn the losses but without federal protection it all means nothing.

USA Today reports that Rod Parsley, pastor of Ohio's 12,000-member World Harvest Church, has "assembled a list of 100,000 Ohio acolytes, all of whom will be called by the World Harvest Church on the eve of the election, reminding them to vote." The newspaper pointed out that Parsley held a September meeting of 200 Ohio ministers to explain that they could advocate for the supposedly nonpartisan Issue 1 without losing their nonprofit tax status. "

This is why the so called faith based initiative is wrong. Clearly the church is partisan and has a vested interest in who wins this election. Why are they tax exempt? Religion is big business and it's time they lose their exempt status.

First they came for the Jews and I did not speak out because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the Communists and I did not speak out because I was not a Communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists and I did not speak out
because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for me and there was no one left to speak out for me.

What is the saying, those who do not learn from history are destined to repeat it. This election really is about what kind of values we as a nation want to embrace.

[Kender]

I'm not going to touch most of that. As I explained to Outgirl, when it comes to the subject of gay marriage, I don't know. Part of me wonders what it could really hurt. On Sunday, the Deacon who gave the homily briefly spoke of gays waging war on the traditional family. I'm not sure I get that. I feel the need to use Denzel Washington's technique from the movie Philidelphia. "Explain this to me as if I was a four year old", because I don't understand.

This small part, I'd like to address, though:

And I keep coming back to one question, "If homosexuality is so evil, why does it exist? Why would God burden a person with something that He considers evil?" And the only answer, to me, for that question is that it is homosexual acts relating to worship of pagan gods...not homosexuality per se.

My answer is that homosexuality itself is not evil. Homosexuals are not evil people. What is not a choice cannot be a sin. Choosing to engage in sex is always a choice, though. This is true for everyone, regardless of sexual orientation. Granted, the rules regarding homosexual acts are more strict in that there simply is no circumstance where the sex is not considered sinful, where the heterosexual can at least have sex with his wife. Even then, at least according to the Roman Catholic Church, there are rules about that. Artificial contraception, for example, is a no-no. Sex should be "open to life". That means no condoms, no pill, no IUD, no diaprham, and no anal or oral sex. Okay, one religion teacher did concede that anal and oral sex were okay, so long as the man *ahem* ...switches locations...so that the semen ends up in the vagina, making the sex act "open to life". I have no idea what the Pope would think if he was presented with that scenario....but that's an American Catholic for you...trying to find the loophole.

I digress, though. The question was why would God burden someone with something he considers evil? What we're really talking about is temptation. Why are people born heterosexual, when God knows darn well that we'll be tempted to have sex with people we ought not have sex with? Why would God burden someone with blindness? Why would God burden someone with deafness? Why would God burden someone with both, leaving only touch as their way to perceive the outside world (Hellen Keller)? Incidentally, how the heck did she manage to be such an amazingly wonderful person? Today, if presented with the knowledge that a child was going to be born blind and deaf, I'm sure a lot of people would say "abort" and say that it was the merciful thing to do. Hellen Keller was born, however, and rather than living a short life of despair, she turned out to be rather remarkable. I find this quote from her to be amazing: "All the world is full of suffering, it is also full of overcoming it".

We all feel down from time to time. Maybe we feel worthless. Maybe we feel overwhelmed by the suffering around us. Hellen Keller had every right to be angry at God. "What kind of cruel bastard allows a child to be born, trapped in her own head - unable to see and hear?" she could have said, and who would blame her? Maybe she thought that from time to time, especially before she was sent teachers who figured out how to help her overcome her limitations. If they weren't a gift from God, I don't know what is.

I don't know why people are burdened by the crosses they bear. I am thankful that we are not asked to bear them alone, that God (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) is there to help us bear them.

[outgirl]

kender, I respect you. However your beliefs about homosexuality are based on the bible. That is your religion and I certainly would fight for your right of religious freedom even if I disagree. The thing is I do disagree. I am not a christian. Christianity is not mandated in this country and my rights shouldn't be determined by the bible. This is blatant discrimination of one group of taxpaying citizens by the majority. It is wrong. This country was founded on the principles of separation of church and state.

[RS Davis]

outgirl said:

Christianity is not mandated in this country and my rights shouldn't be determined by the bible. This is blatant discrimination of one group of taxpaying citizens by the majority. It is wrong. This country was founded on the principles of separation of church and state.

And minority rights.

- Rick

[maylily]

I guess I wasn't clear, Kender. If God considers homosexual acts so heinous, then why would he have allowed the capacity for that orientation to exist at all? I don't believe that God "causes" people to be born deformed or disabled (although Helen Keller was born perfectly healthy, she was about 2, I think, when she became ill with something and almost died and that resulted in her loss of taste, sight and hearing). I believe that the disabilities some kids suffer when they are born are the result of chance. God doesn't make it happen. However, God could have stopped from the very beginning of time the orientation towards same sex sex. He could have eliminated that "switch" in the brain or whatever it is and given everyone a "level playing field". As you said, Kender, everyone knew that extramarital sex was wrong in the eyes of God and my question is why would God create the capability for anyone to be burdened with the extra fight of only desiring the type of sex that He considers evil? Arrrggghhhh, I can't explain the difference...it's all stopped here in my mind and I can't get it out!

I think so much of it comes back to personal responsibility and power. If someone doesn't agree with homosexual marriage, the solution is simple...don't marry someone of the same sex. If someone doesn't agree with the "homosexual lifestyle", don't have homosexual sex. People should start taking responsibility for their own actions and cleaning up their own backyards, so to speak. Worry a little less about what Joe and Jim are doing down the street and a little more about how you treats that homeless guy that you pulled the hem of your coat away from so it wouldn't touch him (using you in the general sense, not specific). Quit wringing hands over whether Mary and Alice are getting married to each other and start doing something about Helen that can't feed her kids even though she works every day at two jobs. Personal responsibility and refocusing of energies. The power comes in because so many of the megachurches are extremely happy to tell their congregants what to think and what is right instead of allowing those congregants to take responsibility for their own relationship with God and their own actions.

Its really time for people of faith to take responsibility for their own actions and their own relationship with God. I'm not saying that churches need to be eliminated. I am saying that church is a place where people can gather to worship together, to support each other, to mass together to follow the precepts of their religion. In Christian churches, that would include doing the things that God commanded us to do through Jesus' teaching. Feed the hungry, clothe the naked, house the homeless, comfort the sick and dying and those in grief. Every single time a child goes to bed hungry because there is no food in the house it is a failure of all Christians...because we just aren't doing enough. There shouldn't be more religion in politics, there should be more religion in people's hearts. People should stop worrying about what evil everyone else is doing and see clearly the evil they themselves are doing - or what good they are failing to do.

I find it disgusting that the focus to putting "God" back into "laws" is in oppressive and restrictive legislation. Where are the bills that would make it illegal for the United States to allow even one of "her" children to go to bed hungry? Where is the constitutional amendment that says everyone will have a safe, warm place to live? But its not about that. It's about power and oppression.

[outgirl]

may, I am so touched by your words that right now I am speechless. Thank you

[Kender]

You'll notice that I avoided actually advocating laws. That was deliberate. I was trying to address the religious question. The only thing I'll say on that is that I think it is absurd to expect religious people to be silent about an issue, be it homosexual marriage, abortion, the War in Iraq....because their views are shaped by their religious beliefs. Separation of Church and State means that there is no offficial religion - that people are not second class citizens if they belong to the wrong religion (or belong to no religion at all). It does not mean that religious people should shut up and stay out of politics. Make sense?

Ok, Hellen Keller wasn't born that way. My bad. My point is largely the same,though. We all have our crosses to bear. Nobody likes crosses. Okay, some like to burn them, but nobody jumps up excited and says "I think I'll bear a cross today".

We're given crosses to bear, just the same. Fortunately, we do not need to bear them alone.

May, you relegate things like blindness, birth defects and so on to "chance" and sexual orientation to an act of God. This seems to be a strange thing to do. Surely, God could intervene and eliminate those things caused by "chance", but people are still born blind, deaf, with a deformed arm, no arm at all...and so on.

To my mind, if you're going to let God off the hook for that by saying that God did not cause these things, but chance did, then why is it unreasonable to suggest the same thing for homosexual orientation?

I don't know why anyone gets the cross they are given to bear. Ultimatley, only God can answer that. God sees things in a way that we don't.

Perhaps the crosses we bear are only partially for our benefit (I know, a cross for our benefit? What the?) Maybe it's for the benefit of our brothers and sisters.

"Outgirl," He might say, "one of my children is full of hate. He hates anyone who is not like him. If they're the wrong religion, he hates. If they're the wrong color, he hates. If they're the wrong sexual orientation, he hates. I have made many people like yourself different from him. They are loving. They are nurturing. They are good people. Just like you. Some day he will encounter you, and the others I have made. All I want you to do, is be yourself. He will have the opportunity to realize that these people that are different from him are good people. He will have the opportunity to stop hating. He will have the opportunity to come home. Whether he does or not, is up to him. All you have to do is be the person you are...so that where there is hate, there may be love.

Crosses are not easy things to carry. This I know all too well. My Son fell three times trying to carry His. Each time, He got back up and carried on. It was not easy. Do not despair, though. You need not carry it alone. I will help, if you let me."

I don't know. I am no prophet. I do not say "Thus, says the Lord". I do know that our crosses, whatever they may be make us who we are. I remember a priest who is a recovering alcoholic. He described the Hell that alcoholism took him through. He did not regret it, though, because it made him the person he is today - and he liked that person.

[outgirl]

Kender said:

You'll notice that I avoided actually advocating laws. That was deliberate. I was trying to address the religious question. The only thing I'll say on that is that I think it is absurd to expect religious people to be silent about an issue, be it homosexual marriage, abortion, the War in Iraq....because their views are shaped by their religious beliefs. Separation of Church and State means that there is no offficial religion - that people are not second class citizens if they belong to the wrong religion (or belong to no religion at all). It does not mean that religious people should shut up and stay out of politics. Make sense?

As christians you certainly have the right to speak your mind and vote your conscience. You do not have the right to manipulate elections and then receive tax credit for doing so. I never said that you had no right being involved in the political arena. I just think it's time we recognize the extent of that involvement. Religious organizations get huge tax breaks for their charitable work yet most of their time, energy and money is spent actively fighting the gay agenda. Their merger with the republican party is going to financially benefit both the church and the party. They have monopolized our whole political system. They have tainted what America stand for. They aren't after our souls. Maylily is right, they want our lives.[/quote]

Kender said:

May, you relegate things like blindness, birth defects and so on to "chance" and sexual orientation to an act of God. This seems to be a strange thing to do. Surely, God could intervene and eliminate those things caused by "chance", but people are still born blind, deaf, with a deformed arm, no arm at all...and so on.

I was not a defect at birth.

I really can't respond to the rest of this because your entire viewpoint is based on the bible. You don't want to talk about advocating law based on the bible but that's all I care about. I'm not out to destroy christianity and only see it as my enemy because of current politics. I don't care what you do but when you support such an anti gay agenda in this election then you are actively promoting laws that are dividing this nation and tainting the whole concept of what America is. Patriotism is a word that is bantered around a lot. In a nation founded on the principles of separation of church and state, Sometimes you have to do the secular thing in order to do the right thing. Besides, Jesus lived amongst the sinners. He fed the hungry, help the poor, provided sustenance for the soul. He wasn't merging with the warmongers and the hatemongers.

[emilysrevolution]

I'm sorry Kender. I guess I just don't believe any all-powerful, all-loving, all-encompassing god would create or allow a race of people (homosexuals) to exist without the possibility of loving someone completely and being loved completely. I do not believe in a god that provokes a group of people with only temptation and no way to alleviate it and remain obedient. A god like that is flawed. A god like that is manipulative. A god like that is not so different from most men.

Hey, and you're entitiled to your opinion and all, but man-- infering that homosexuality is like blindness or deafness (a disability) is fucking insulting and I'm not even gay. It makes me sad.

[whatever]

emilysrevolution said:

I'm sorry Kender. I guess I just don't believe any all-powerful, all-loving, all-encompassing god would create or allow a race of people (homosexuals) to exist without the possibility of loving someone completely and being loved completely. I do not believe in a god that provokes a group of people with only temptation and no way to alleviate it and remain obedient. A god like that is flawed. A god like that is manipulative. A god like that is not so different from most men.

Hey, and you're entitiled to your opinion and all, but man-- infering that homosexuality is like blindness or deafness (a disability) is fucking insulting and I'm not even gay. It makes me sad.

Kender, I have to second this. Great post Em imho

To believe there is sin associated with homosexual behavior is, as I ranted on dvb about on STL CA a few weeks ago so it's fresh in my mind, to subject an entire group of people to a life of no love and no romantic companion...and no hope of one ever...or hell?

It isn't even a question of right or wrong. I want it to be seen for the extreme belief that it is. It is basically telling people they are meant to be lonely and alone for the rest of their lives.

What a life sentence that is. Why are we even discussiong it? It's like a death sentence. We don't toss those around like crude jokes.

Kender, how would you like someone to hold that kind of belief over you? Maybe for your race; I'm part german, and so that whole extermination thing comes to mind. Who would want such a radical belief shoved in their face if they themselves had decided it was incorrect. Felt it was incorrect.

Knew in their hearts it was incorrect. Mind, body and soul.

Might any person change their mind about the rightness of that belief...having been put in that position themselves? Isn't it like a torture? Who wouldn't break? It's not a weekend test. It's a lifetime.

No matter how much you've thought about this, you haven' t thought enough.

When I put myself in that position...and listen to what you and so many others say...knowing NONE of you can possibly feel this pain because none of you are included...it makes me sad too.

[emilysrevolution]

Hey Rick!! What happened to my avatar??

[RS Davis]

Not sure. Try right-clicking and choosing "Show Picture."

- Rick