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Post by zombiekiller on Aug 9, 2004 23:56:31 GMT -5
A URL on a tshirt at the firing range this weekend led me to the website of the st. louis chapter of the national alliance.
The hardest part of freedom of speech is recognizing that it also applies to people and messages that make you want to vomit.
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Post by RS Davis on Aug 10, 2004 5:49:58 GMT -5
A URL on a tshirt at the firing range this weekend led me to the website of the st. louis chapter of the national alliance. The hardest part of freedom of speech is recognizing that it also applies to people and messages that make you want to vomit. What's the National Alliance? Here's a couple good quotes that apply to and expand on your thoughts in your second paragraph:
"I have always strenuously supported the right of every man to his own opinion, however different that opinion might be to mine. He who denies another this right makes a slave of himself to his present opinion, because he precludes himself the right of changing it."
²Thomas Paine, 1783
"The truth is found when men are free to pursue it."
² Franklin D. Roosevelt, 1936
"If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear."
² George Orwell, 1945 - Rick |
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Post by outgirl on Aug 10, 2004 13:24:38 GMT -5
A URL on a tshirt at the firing range this weekend led me to the website of the st. louis chapter of the national alliance. The hardest part of freedom of speech is recognizing that it also applies to people and messages that make you want to vomit. Being the clever wordsmith that I am, I usually just use my freedom of speech to say Fuck you to whomever, but I know what you mean. For me the hard part is when the views of another trample on my right to feel free of persecution. The marble monument that Fred Phelps wants to erect stating that Mathew Shephard is burning in hell in the middle of a public park comes to mind. I don't care what we have to do to prevent that kind of shit, even if it means removing all statues and plaques from every public park. That shit should not be allowed. In my humble opinion. |
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Post by n2nsites on Aug 10, 2004 19:05:03 GMT -5
To continue on in my fatalistic mode - there are a lot of ugly people in the world. The sad/scary part is they are dressed like normal people most of the time. I value the freedom of speech. There are certain speeches I choose not to listen to. Here's what I find disturbing, unnerving and disheartening - when faced with incredibly vile "speech", people have many choices. For instance, OG mentioned the horrid monument dickwad wants to erect. We (the collective "we" who know this is vile) cannot give credence to his work. No one should ever set foot in that park ever, should it be built. That's a statement. But I have no faith in the public coming together that way. I don't see people doing much in the way of countering vicious groups through productive means. I try to make my own statements in small ways - so the people I come in contact with know how I feel - but I don't make a huge deal out of it, ruining the effect that sublety sometimes has. But sometimes I need to step it up a notch and do something proactive, or loud, or noticeable. That's harder for me, just as it seems to be with most people. Here's why I value the freedom - at least when people are vocal, or choose certain tee shirts etc., I know what they are, how they think. Those people I can avoid, ignore, disrespect - whatever I choose. It's the folks that hide it, or disguise it, or misrepresent themselves that I fear. They can get inside gullible minds and twist the truth around. They promote their hidden agenda by acting "correctly" and then find the weak ones to subvert. They fuel their hatred silently. I want to know what I am face-to-face with. Show me your true colors up front. I have met people who thought I was weak, who tricked me into believing in their goodness, only to find out later they were just putrid, empty shells. What they didn't realize was that I am stronger than I look/act.  (And sometimes I am not so nice.) ((Kinda passive-aggressive I have been told...)) I don't shield my kids from evil, or hate or bigotry. They are going to see it, and now is the time I can shape their ideas and coach them on how to deal with ugly people and not get sucked into stupidity. I don't like it, letting them see the underbelly. It takes a bit of the luster out of their eyes. But I won't let them be blindsided either. |
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Post by outgirl on Aug 11, 2004 3:52:12 GMT -5
To continue on in my fatalistic mode - there are a lot of ugly people in the world. The sad/scary part is they are dressed like normal people most of the time. I value the freedom of speech. There are certain speeches I choose not to listen to. Here's what I find disturbing, unnerving and disheartening - when faced with incredibly vile "speech", people have many choices. For instance, OG mentioned the horrid monument dickwad wants to erect. We (the collective "we" who know this is vile) cannot give credence to his work. No one should ever set foot in that park ever, should it be built. That's a statement. But I have no faith in the public coming together that way. I don't see people doing much in the way of countering vicious groups through productive means. I try to make my own statements in small ways - so the people I come in contact with know how I feel - but I don't make a huge deal out of it, ruining the effect that sublety sometimes has. But sometimes I need to step it up a notch and do something proactive, or loud, or noticeable. That's harder for me, just as it seems to be with most people. Here's why I value the freedom - at least when people are vocal, or choose certain tee shirts etc., I know what they are, how they think. Those people I can avoid, ignore, disrespect - whatever I choose. It's the folks that hide it, or disguise it, or misrepresent themselves that I fear. They can get inside gullible minds and twist the truth around. They promote their hidden agenda by acting "correctly" and then find the weak ones to subvert. They fuel their hatred silently. I want to know what I am face-to-face with. Show me your true colors up front. I have met people who thought I was weak, who tricked me into believing in their goodness, only to find out later they were just putrid, empty shells. What they didn't realize was that I am stronger than I look/act. (And sometimes I am not so nice.) ((Kinda passive-aggressive I have been told...)) I don't shield my kids from evil, or hate or bigotry. They are going to see it, and now is the time I can shape their ideas and coach them on how to deal with ugly people and not get sucked into stupidity. I don't like it, letting them see the underbelly. It takes a bit of the luster out of their eyes. But I won't let them be blindsided either. :-[As always n2n, you have such a way with a paragraph.  |
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Post by whatever on Aug 12, 2004 22:24:44 GMT -5
I agree with what you all said. You say it so well too  And I'm definitely agreeing with what you said outgirl, about stopping some horrid "monument" to saying mean things about...I had to double check that because I couldn't believe it for a second...Mathew. So small, he was so small. Shorter than me, Anyway, I'm all for civil disobedience in that type of case. Like with the KKK roadside clean up signs. I was proud when ordinary people stopped those damn things. Miss feelilng like that about my state. Something else Ashcroft fucked up. |
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Post by outgirl on Aug 13, 2004 8:19:36 GMT -5
I agree with what you all said. You say it so well too Anyway, I'm all for civil disobedience in that type of case. Like with the KKK roadside clean up signs. I was proud when ordinary people stopped those damn things. Miss feelilng like that about my state. Something else Ashcroft fucked up. Yeah, now we have Ammendment 2 to be proud of. |
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Post by RS Davis on Aug 13, 2004 9:12:00 GMT -5
If that monument ever goes up, anyone want to make a road trip with some sledgehammers??
- Rick
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Post by outgirl on Aug 13, 2004 17:05:26 GMT -5
If that monument ever goes up, anyone want to make a road trip with some sledgehammers?? - Rick  I just keep thinking of his mom and how painful this must be for her. I can't understand how in any degree of fundamentalism this kind of action would be acceptable. He gives all Christians a bad name. He is evil to the core. |
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Post by zombiekiller on Aug 17, 2004 22:11:51 GMT -5
If that monument ever goes up, anyone want to make a road trip with some sledgehammers?? - Rick Oops. ... I missed this thread (that I started even)... The National Alliance is the fine white supremacist organization that brought us the literary masterpiece The Turner Diaries. They're the reason that us large blonde fellows with shaved heads have to constantly say "I'm not a fucking skinhead you freak! I just have bad hair." Anyway, with the sledgehammers, I'm there. |
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Post by n2nsites on Aug 17, 2004 22:26:57 GMT -5
I'll drive. I won't destroy, but I'll drive. Pay for the gas too. Yeah, I know most will think "we can just fly". Try to fly with sledgehammers, just try. Besides, you need a getaway driver....
(It's the passive/aggressive way....)
(for all the FBI readers, we are kidding. REALLY. hehhehheh.....heh...)
(And you know you're here.)
n2nsites, your resident paranoid conspiracy theorist
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