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Post by hotjan on Jul 21, 2004 12:32:07 GMT -5
I don't presume to speak for anyone but myself. Having said that, I do find this cartoon offensive. Here's why: I think the idea that all black people or all gay people think alike is offensive. Black people and gay people didn't ask to be black or gay, they are born black or gay, but they were also born individuals. I think it's unfair to say that all people who happen to be in a certain ethnic or sexual group have the same opinion on everything. To me it seems like a subtle from of bigotry. Of course, a black person can feel like Rice doesn't represent him, but to say that because she doesn't agree with the majority opinion, she is not black or house nigger puts black people back about 4 decades. I do understand, however, that many gay people (you included, outgirl  ) feel that a guy like Sullivan is a moron for voting against rights for himself. Can't say I know much about Sullivan, but I see how he might be infuriating to many gay people. But here's my point: I can only speak for myself, but being a women, it bothers and upsets me when people think they know how I feel or think about something just because I am a woman. This post is sort of long and a little convoluted; sorry about that, all. Basically I'm just trying to say that everyone regardless of race, sexuality, or gender is an individual and is entitled to their own opinion. Just because someone is born into a group, that shouldn't mean that he or she must agree with the majority of that group. I look forward to the day we are all free and we can form opinions on people based solely on their ideals and opinions and leave race, gender or sexuality out of it. pax, jan |
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Post by outgirl on Jul 21, 2004 13:34:59 GMT -5
I don't presume to speak for anyone but myself. Having said that, I do find this cartoon offensive. Here's why: I think the idea that all black people or all gay people think alike is offensive. Black people and gay people didn't ask to be black or gay, they are born black or gay, but they were also born individuals. I think it's unfair to say that all people who happen to be in a certain ethnic or sexual group have the same opinion on everything. To me it seems like a subtle from of bigotry. Of course, a black person can feel like Rice doesn't represent him, but to say that because she doesn't agree with the majority opinion, she is not black or house nigger puts black people back about 4 decades. I do understand, however, that many gay people (you included, outgirl ) feel that a guy like Sullivan is a moron for voting against rights for himself. Can't say I know much about Sullivan, but I see how he might be infuriating to many gay people. But here's my point: I can only speak for myself, but being a women, it bothers and upsets me when people think they know how I feel or think about something just because I am a woman. This post is sort of long and a little convoluted; sorry about that, all. Basically I'm just trying to say that everyone regardless of race, sexuality, or gender is an individual and is entitled to their own opinion. Just because someone is born into a group, that shouldn't mean that he or she must agree with the majority of that group. I look forward to the day we are all free and we can form opinions on people based solely on their ideals and opinions and leave race, gender or sexuality out of it. pax, jan Well color me surprised to see hotjan has posted. Good to see your posts. I don't disagree with either of you but I also don't really have a problem with the fact that many blacks feel this way. I can only judge her based on my view. Because of my sexuality, it is probably easier for me to be understanding to this other viewpoint. It is not right or wrong to me. While she may certainly be her own individual self, like it or not she is seen as a representative to the black community. just as Barney Frank and Tammy Baldwin are our representatives in Washington. Now they certainly are within their rights to become conservatives, republicans or nazis if they wish. However, if the gay community feels betrayed and wanted to refer to them as closeted heteros for example, what right do you or anyone else have to invalidate the feelings of an entire community. You sure don't have to agree. All I am saying is that different groups of people form their viewpoints based on their own experiences. You can talk about individualism all you want but the fact is that there are cultural differences that shape us. You may find this cartoon offensive. . I'm sure there are plenty of African Americans that would agree with you. I understand the point it is making and no it isn't pretty. Whether I agree with it or not is relevant only to me. I can not make judgements about the fact that many blacks feel this way. I am not black. That isn't my call. |
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Post by RS Davis on Jul 21, 2004 13:38:55 GMT -5
I think Powell is widely respected by the black community. That may be true, but I've also heard the terms "House Nigga" and "Uncle Tom" bandied about, particularly from Harry Belefonte. Of course, Powell is barely conservative. I'd call him a centrist, myself. At the very least, he seems to be the only one who ever shows dissent in the White House... - Rick |
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Post by RS Davis on Jul 21, 2004 13:48:11 GMT -5
I think you can disagree with someone without calling them a House Nigga.
Ya know, I think, for instance, John Kerry and George Bush's domestic vision for America would be bad for America, but that doesn't mean I think they sold out or is not really an American. It just means we have a different opinion.
- Rick
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Post by outgirl on Jul 21, 2004 13:49:47 GMT -5
Oh you guys, I gotta go to bed. Never one to quit on ya but I've been up 24 hrs now. We can finish this later if ya want but really I'm done. I know you see this as an injustice, however black people feel they are subjected to many injustices daily as well. As the saying goes, "Ya gotta walk in my shoes to know my struggle" Well something like that.
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Post by RS Davis on Jul 21, 2004 14:22:49 GMT -5
Oh you guys, I gotta go to bed. Never one to quit on ya but I've been up 24 hrs now. We can finish this later if ya want but really I'm done. I know you see this as an injustice, however black people feel they are subjected to many injustices daily as well. As the saying goes, "Ya gotta walk in my shoes to know my struggle" Well something like that. Have a good sleep. BTW, I see where you are coming from, but I am of the old "two wrongs don't make a right" school... - Rick |
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Post by emilysrevolution on Jul 21, 2004 15:55:18 GMT -5
 Does anyone else find the second panel in this cartoon more than a little offensive?? - Rick I know I'm coming in on this a little late but... I'm not really that offended by it. First of all, comics are artists with the right and need to express that which offends them. This artist clearly is offended by Condi and her loyalty to Republicans and not black issues. That's how he feels about her. He may be right or wrong but that doesn't really matter anyway. It's an expression of the artist's feelings of the administration. Actually, the Condi thing was the only part of that sketch I even thought was a little funny. Come on! "Hand over the hair straightener?" That's amusing. And you Libertarians are always telling us you have the right to piss off whomever you like in the name of freedom. So they got you this time. Shrug it off to tastelessness (my favorite form of humor though usually of sexual content). Meg and Rick, you have laughed at something like this kind of humor before. Who loves the song "taking retards to the zoo" more than me and Meg? You can't be PC only when it's about someone you like a little. WORD. Oh, and while I believe we need to accept differing views, I do also believe we need to recognize and accept differences within cultures. Black culture is in some ways very different than ours. Mom can tell you all about the differences she sees at the hospitol. Basically, whites are taught to be fierce individualist (if your family sucks--fuck em, you don't need them). Blacks are taught loyalty through thick and thin. I think blacks feel voting against laws that protect them from discrimination is disloyal. So to many, Condi did sell out the family for the individual. That why many whites like her and many blacks don't and that's just sociology, man. It's what it is, right or wrong. You can disagree with it as much as I disagree with all the growing number of white hetero males pissing and moaning about being discriminated. All it leads to is fascinating discussion such as this. gotta go  ! |
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Post by emilysrevolution on Jul 21, 2004 16:03:26 GMT -5
omg! I love jan's dancing michael! Faboo darling.
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Post by RS Davis on Jul 21, 2004 17:56:38 GMT -5
I'm not really that offended by it. First of all, comics are artists with the right and need to express that which offends them. This artist clearly is offended by Condi and her loyalty to Republicans and not black issues. That's how he feels about her. He may be right or wrong but that doesn't really matter anyway. It's an expression of the artist's feelings of the administration. Actually, the Condi thing was the only part of that sketch I even thought was a little funny. Come on! "Hand over the hair straightener?" That's amusing. And you Libertarians are always telling us you have the right to piss off whomever you like in the name of freedom. So they got you this time. Shrug it off to tastelessness (my favorite form of humor though usually of sexual content). Meg and Rick, you have laughed at something like this kind of humor before. Who loves the song "taking retards to the zoo" more than me and Meg? You can't be PC only when it's about someone you like a little. WORD. Well, it's not like I want to bring the PC jackboot of the government down on the guy. He has every right to be a motherfucker, but I also have the right to point it out. At any rate, I enjoy tasteless humor as much as the next guy, but the type I like is tasteless to be tasteless, not calling someone you don't like a nigger. If I had called Jesse Jackson a nigger, it would not have gone over very well, I don't think. Oh, and while I believe we need to accept differing views, I do also believe we need to recognize and accept differences within cultures. Black culture is in some ways very different than ours. Mom can tell you all about the differences she sees at the hospitol. Basically, whites are taught to be fierce individualist (if your family sucks--fuck em, you don't need them). Blacks are taught loyalty through thick and thin. Just out of curiosity - if they are taught such strong family loyalty, why are there so many single moms with dads not around and dads with eight kids with six different women? Most accounts put the illigitimacy rates for African Americans at a staggering 70%. This isn't a judgement - they can do all the unprotected fucking they want and the guys can run away all they want. It's their choice, not mine. But it does indicate that the bond you speak of may not be as strong as you suspect. - Rick |
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Post by dr snootch on Jul 22, 2004 8:51:12 GMT -5
Personally, I find it offensive when anyone is referred to as a nigger for any reason. I think we should probably be past that stage of our national development.
As far as the cartoon goes, I think it's meant to appeal to the lowest common denominator. Anyway, the artist has the right to make whatever cartoon (s)he wants to make, I just think the artist is missing most of the actual reasons to hate the Bush administration and is appealing to the 'us against them' ideology that has pervaded our country these past couple hundred years.
As a litmus test, I try to imagine the reaction if Condi Rice were a liberal and a conservative pundit called her a nigger. I don't think that would be treated with the same sense of humor that this cartoon is being treated with.
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Post by outgirl on Jul 22, 2004 16:10:21 GMT -5
Personally, I find it offensive when anyone is referred to as a nigger for any reason. I think we should probably be past that stage of our national development. . Agreed. Just wanna point out that the less offensive term "nigga" is used. At least less offensive in the black community. As far as the cartoon goes, I think it's meant to appeal to the lowest common denominator. Anyway, the artist has the right to make whatever cartoon (s)he wants to make, I just think the artist is missing most of the actual reasons to hate the Bush administration and is appealing to the 'us against them' ideology that has pervaded our country these past couple hundred years. . As far as I am concerned, it is us against them. This administration has declared war on the gay community. The lines are clearly drawn for me. As a litmus test, I try to imagine the reaction if Condi Rice were a liberal and a conservative pundit called her a nigger. I don't think that would be treated with the same sense of humor that this cartoon is being treated with. I'm sure you're right. Look at the trouble that Arnie got into for calling the dems "girlie boys" dude. Of course it's not like we haven't been blatantly called fags. Who was it that referred to Barney Frank as Barney Fag? Of course a republican can get away with calling someone a fag. He'd be in big trouble for using the N word these days. At least publicly. . I know about dbl standards. They exist everywhere. To be honest, it was the hair straightener thing that offended me more than the "house nigga" line. Words in and of themselves don't bother me as much as they used to. Maybe that means Chuck D is right and the pervasive use of using the N word in hip hop makes white people more likely to use it as well. I don't know if the artist is black or white. To me, that does make a difference. I think the intent behind the word needs to be as important as the word itself. I'm not offended by Eminems use of the fag word and confess that I use it frequently amongst some of my gay friends. I don't use it among my straight friends. But it is different when used by our political enemies or the creeps bashing our heads in. . A lot of black people use the word nigga all the time but it is not acceptable for a white person to call them that. I think the cartoon is tasteless but I think it makes it's point. |
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Post by outgirl on Jul 22, 2004 17:43:10 GMT -5
Just out of curiosity - if they are taught such strong family loyalty, why are there so many single moms with dads not around and dads with eight kids with six different women? Most accounts put the illigitimacy rates for African Americans at a staggering 70%. This isn't a judgement - they can do all the unprotected fucking they want and the guys can run away all they want. It's their choice, not mine. But it does indicate that the bond you speak of may not be as strong as you suspect. - Rick Being an unmarried single parent myself who's baby daddy ran out on her, I can't say much about this. There is a very strong family bond in black families that is different than what I see in white families. It is very evident in the setting that I work in. I see families when they are going through the worst thing in life. Death and illness. I'm certainly not sugesting that love is stronger in black families than in white ones but it is expressed differently. These are cultural differences. When a white person is ill, it is their immediately family at the hospital. An aunt or cousin may come once a week but mostly it is parent,kids and siblings. When a black person is ill we frequently see every family member in the waiting room. Every cousin down to the newborn babies in the family and they're there sometimes 24/7. It's not right or wrong, just cultural differences. |
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Post by RS Davis on Jul 22, 2004 21:57:27 GMT -5
Being an unmarried single parent myself who's baby daddy ran out on her, I can't say much about this. There is a very strong family bond in black families that is different than what I see in white families. It is very evident in the setting that I work in. I see families when they are going through the worst thing in life. Death and illness. I'm certainly not sugesting that love is stronger in black families than in white ones but it is expressed differently. These are cultural differences. When a white person is ill, it is their immediately family at the hospital. An aunt or cousin may come once a week but mostly it is parent,kids and siblings. When a black person is ill we frequently see every family member in the waiting room. Every cousin down to the newborn babies in the family and they're there sometimes 24/7. It's not right or wrong, just cultural differences. You know, I didn't think of it before, but your post pointed it out - there are more people in a family than the father. Even if the father is long gone, the rest of the family, as you mention, is still free to be intensely loyal. - Rick |
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Post by RS Davis on Jul 22, 2004 22:01:51 GMT -5
I know. That is what I hate about politics. It was clear he wasn't calling them gay, but parroting the Hans and Franz routine from the 80's. The only thing he is guilty of in this case is being dated. And I am sure all his opposition knows that, but it doesn't matter - stir up a little fake outrage and they can try to use it against him.
I never heard about that Barney Frank thing, but you know what bothers me? Everyone saying, "That's gay," when they don't like things. I give people who say that all kinds of shit...
- Rick
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Post by outgirl on Jul 23, 2004 4:08:20 GMT -5
I never heard about that Barney Frank thing, but you know what bothers me? Everyone saying, "That's gay," when they don't like things. I give people who say that all kinds of shit... - Rick The Barney Fag thing happened a couple of years ago. Might've been Trent Lott but not sure. I really hate referring to something that you don't like or think is silly as gay too. I was asked once how I could get so upset about that when I don't mind Eminem using the fag word. It's like this. I'm gay. My friends are gay. Gay is not an insult or a derogatory word to me. In fact, it's a lovely word. It refers to a whole community of gifted talented people, so when it is used to describe something silly then I find that insulting. I'm not a fag. None of my friends are fags. Fag is a derogatory term used to describe someone who is not a stand up kind of person. If Eminem want to refer to his faggot father, I don't care. He's not talking about gay people. He's talkin about his chicken shit dad who abandoned him. When you call something that you think is stupid gay, that is different to me. |
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