Jodi
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Posts: 30
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Post by Jodi on Oct 30, 2003 10:27:15 GMT -5
She didn't have any money, as a matter of fact. My brother has spent the last two years living like a monk and paying a bit at a time. He's almost done, and I am completely impressed. I'm glad y'all were that fortunate- that your brother was able to cover those costs, but that's hardly an argument in favor of the system. Just because y'all were lucky enough to have a family member who could help doesn't change the fact that there millions who don't. And I've explained to you why those numbers are wrong. To briefly recap: **The self proclaimed "definitive study" by the Fraser Institute uses a MEDIAN, not a mean average, so that alone is enough to taint the "average". **Wait times for a particular patient are predicated on urgency, not some bizarre buraucratic get-at-the-end-of-the-line-no-matter-what policy, as you insist. |
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Post by RS Davis on Oct 30, 2003 11:16:20 GMT -5
I'm glad y'all were that fortunate- that your brother was able to cover those costs, but that's hardly an argument in favor of the system. Just because y'all were lucky enough to have a family member who could help doesn't change the fact that there millions who don't. Millions who won't. And all that means is that everyone else's bills go up when they don't pay it. But that's not even the point we were discussing. The hospital had no proof my brother would take care of the bill - yet they still took my mother. And I've explained to you why those numbers are wrong. To briefly recap: **The self proclaimed "definitive study" by the Fraser Institute uses a MEDIAN, not a mean average, so that alone is enough to taint the "average". **Wait times for a particular patient are predicated on urgency, not some bizarre buraucratic get-at-the-end-of-the-line-no-matter-what policy, as you insist. So, what is the mean average? And how many weeks is it okay to wait for bypass surgery? - Rick |
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Jodi
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Posts: 30
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Post by Jodi on Oct 30, 2003 13:08:18 GMT -5
What? [quote[But that's not even the point we were discussing. The hospital had no proof my brother would take care of the bill - yet they still took my mother. [/quote] So, are you saying the hospital never asked who was going to pay? Or did they get the information from your brother and make him the billable party? I don't know. Do you? I didn't claim to be quoting definitive statistics. The fact is, there are no hard numbers regarding waiting lists, the Fraser Institutes dishonesty notwithstanding. I'm not sure you're asking. Are you asking that to suggest that Canada's emergency rooms turn emergency bypass patients away, and refer them to a waiting list? If you are, it's not true, and I'm pretty sure you know it. I suppose the only answer to your question is- no longer than is viable for the health of the patient, which is why under Canada's system, they determine the order of service not by who's got the best insurance or the most cash, but by urgency. Either way, the question is moot, as related to a comparison of the American vs. the Canadian system, in that both systems treat emergency procedures quickly, and in terms of non-emergency but still urgent procedures, American patients routinely have coverage denied. Even Ms. Orient admits as much, and one would have to be beyond dishonest to deny it. |
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Post by RS Davis on Oct 30, 2003 17:59:31 GMT -5
So, are you saying the hospital never asked who was going to pay? Or did they get the information from your brother and make him the billable party? They put him down, yes. I'm not arguing that. I'm not sure why you are. They didn't make him pre-pay, or prove that he was able, and that is the point. I don't know. Do you? I didn't claim to be quoting definitive statistics. The fact is, there are no hard numbers regarding waiting lists, the Fraser Institutes dishonesty notwithstanding. Well, I'm not the one making claims that waiting lists are not a problem in Canada. You can make the assertion that the way the Fraser institute does their study isn't to your liking, but you can't say there aren't waiting lists without some proof. Are you asking that to suggest that Canada's emergency rooms turn emergency bypass patients away, and refer them to a waiting list? If you are, it's not true, and I'm pretty sure you know it. I suppose the only answer to your question is- no longer than is viable for the health of the patient, which is why under Canada's system, they determine the order of service not by who's got the best insurance or the most cash, but by urgency. Either way, the question is moot, as related to a comparison of the American vs. the Canadian system, in that both systems treat emergency procedures quickly, and in terms of non-emergency but still urgent procedures, American patients routinely have coverage denied. Even Ms. Orient admits as much, and one would have to be beyond dishonest to deny it. You're the only one talking about emergency procedures. I'm talking about someone having the tests and procedures, like most people do, after an initial consultation with another doctor. - Rick |
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Post by hotjan on Oct 30, 2003 18:34:56 GMT -5
I'm glad y'all were that fortunate- that your brother was able to cover those costs, but that's hardly an argument in favor of the system. Just because y'all were lucky enough to have a family member who could help doesn't change the fact that there millions who don't. I didn't. I have very little money. However when my agoraphobic ass was carted kicking and screaming to the hospital, I was seen, even though I was not holding my eyeball in my hand or spouting blood. In fact, I was seen, treated, and referred to a psychiatrist in one night. My pyschiatrist saw me the next day and prescribed meds that were filled that day. In Canada this would have taken much longer, according to a defected Canadian physician I know. Weeks definately, months quite probably. In this time I may very well have gone off the deep end completely. I now owe quite a bit to the hospital, however I will gladly take the debt instead of the weeks/months of agony I would have suffered had I had the misfortune of being born in socialist Canada. -Meg |
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Jodi
Newbie
Posts: 30
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Post by Jodi on Oct 31, 2003 3:47:04 GMT -5
They put him down, yes. I'm not arguing that. I'm not sure why you are. They didn't make him pre-pay, or prove that he was able, and that is the point. Because it's inherent to the discussion. Here's why. In Canada, wealth or lack thereof isn't an issue. In the US, it is. Let's talk about the cancer patient WITHOUT money or relatives with money. They can, indeed, walk into a county hospital and receive chemotherapy. But, they won't be able to make an appointment at their own convenience, they'll be put on a LIST, and often won't begin treatment for many weeks. Private hospitals won't even put them on the list- they'll just send the patient away. In Canada's system, wealth or lack thereof has absolutely no bearing on how quickly one is seen. Patients are triaged based on urgency. (As an aside, I think what galls most Americans about the system, when you get right down to it, is that the Canadians don't automatically reward people for being wealthy. Americans simply can't fathom that.) Sheesh. If this is what you're looking for, if this is what will make you happy, okay: There are waiting lists in Canada, just as there are in the USA. My point was never that the "waiting lists" ins some form don't exist, my point was that the common belief that patients are simply put on a waiting list and don't receive needed care is a MYTH. The Canadian system is imperfect, but it's certainly more effective and more efficient for a much greater percentage of their population than our system is for Americans. Earlier, you were arguing that people were dying because they couldn't get urgent care. That's considerably LESS true in Canada than in the USA (i. e., people not getting urgent care). |
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Post by RS Davis on Oct 31, 2003 7:43:23 GMT -5
Because it's inherent to the discussion. Here's why. In Canada, wealth or lack thereof isn't an issue. In the US, it is. Let's talk about the cancer patient WITHOUT money or relatives with money. They can, indeed, walk into a county hospital and receive chemotherapy. But, they won't be able to make an appointment at their own convenience, they'll be put on a LIST, and often won't begin treatment for many weeks. Private hospitals won't even put them on the list- they'll just send the patient away. In Canada's system, wealth or lack thereof has absolutely no bearing on how quickly one is seen. Patients are triaged based on urgency. That's funny because my dad died of emphysema with no insurance and a lot of bills. He was never once turned away and got expedient care. After he died, my sister just wrote "deceased" on his bills, and they stopped sending them. As a person who had dealt with the American system in many ways and without money, I have to tell you, you have no idea what you are talking about. The longest waiting list I or my family has ever been on was about three hours. - Rick |
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Jodi
Newbie
Posts: 30
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Post by Jodi on Oct 31, 2003 11:09:00 GMT -5
That's funny because my dad died of emphysema with no insurance and a lot of bills. He was never once turned away and got expedient care. After he died, my sister just wrote "deceased" on his bills, and they stopped sending them. As a person who had dealt with the American system in many ways and without money, I have to tell you, you have no idea what you are talking about. The longest waiting list I or my family has ever been on was about three hours. Since you seem intent on personalizing this rather than addressing points that I make and information that I provide, I can tell you that as the daughter of somebody who's worked in healthcare administration for more than 2 decades, you're about as wrong as can be. If your anecdotes are accurate, you're not representative of the way the American system in treats the indigent and the poor. It's great that they chose to forgive your family's debt. If your father hadn't passed away, they wouldn't have. |
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Post by RS Davis on Oct 31, 2003 23:16:30 GMT -5
Since you seem intent on personalizing this rather than addressing points that I make and information that I provide, I can tell you that as the daughter of somebody who's worked in healthcare administration for more than 2 decades, you're about as wrong as can be. If your anecdotes are accurate, you're not representative of the way the American system in treats the indigent and the poor. It's great that they chose to forgive your family's debt. If your father hadn't passed away, they wouldn't have. Nor should they have. - Rick |
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