The Faggot Files??

[AppleJax]

RS said:

What is it about that word? I can say fag (ironically, of course) to someone, but I just could not say faggot. It seems so much more hurtful for some reason. It's one of the few words that hits on an emotional level like nigger does. Any thoughts?

- Rick

Well, since you asked, you can't really say "fag" either. It's kinda like the "N" word that way. It's rude to say it unless you are one. I know it doesn't seem right, but that's just the way it is. That word is ours. I'm in for it, aren't I? I'm ready, let me have it.

[Kender]

AppleJax said:

Well, since you asked, you can't really say "fag" either. It's kinda like the "N" word that way. It's rude to say it unless you are one. I know it doesn't seem right, but that's just the way it is. That word is ours. I'm in for it, aren't I? I'm ready, let me have it.

Personally, I think you can have it. I've never heard that word used in any way other than hatefully.

When someone objects to the words "homosexual" and "gay", though, I think "oh come on, this is getting stupid...".

[AppleJax]

I know what you mean, Kender. The world can seem a little overly PC sometimes. "Homosexual" is what it is, and certainly no one can claim that is offensive. I do, however, hear people use the word "gay" in a very impolite way, and I have to say, I don't really like it.

I hear people say "Oh that's not way I mean it," to which I always point out, that word has way too much history for any of us to be redefining it. "Oh that's gay" is a slam on gay people. Period. That's how it got started. That's a fact. It doesn't just stop meaning that.

I don't like to be the one constantly crying "that's offensive" because it becomes trite. I do, however, want to be honest with straight people and tell you if you say "that's gay" in front of a gay person, there's a good chance you're going to hurt their feelings, even if they say you didn't . I would think empathic individuals would choose not to say it, having that knowledge.

[outgirl]

LMFAO...Pyro, dude. I knew you could handle our new misguided friend.

[outgirl]

AppleJax said:

I know what you mean, Kender. The world can seem a little overly PC sometimes. "Homosexual" is what it is, and certainly no one can claim that is offensive. I do, however, hear people use the word "gay" in a very impolite way, and I have to say, I don't really like it.

I hear people say "Oh that's not way I mean it," to which I always point out, that word has way too much history for any of us to be redefining it. "Oh that's gay" is a slam on gay people. Period. That's how it got started. That's a fact. It doesn't just stop meaning that.

I don't like to be the one constantly crying "that's offensive" because it becomes trite. I do, however, want to be honest with straight people and tell you if you say "that's gay" in front of a gay person, there's a good chance you're going to hurt their feelings, even if they say you didn't . I would think empathic individuals would choose not to say it, having that knowledge.

Well AJ... Happy to see you here on FF. I know you've been here before but it's been awhile. We are really like one big extended family now. We're gonna get kender over to QV next lol.

Now you know I have to be different here. I am not so offended by these words though admittedly fag prolly doesn't have the ability to hurt me as much as it does a gay man. But for me intent is more important than the word itself. I mean AJ...we love Eminem and who has made more money using the word faggot than him? Not only does he not offend me but he says so many things that I relate to as a gay person. Maybe it's about being an outsider because that's sort of the recurring theme in all his songs, I don't know. But when Em uses that word to call out ICP I know he isn't talking about us necesarily. And the N word gets a little complicated when you listen to rap...I mean if we aren't suppose to ever say the word then that means we could never enjoy the pleasure of singin along with snoop or jay z? Dude...that would be so wrong. I think that maybe when we get so worked up about some of these words it just gives them power to hurt. You can't hurt me by calling me a dyke. I just say present... I know most people would disagree and there are some who do use these words hatefully but those same people can be just as hateful without the words. I think meaning is important.

I think I was put here to annoy the world
And destroy your little 4 year old boy or girl
Plus I was put here to put fear
In faggots who spray FAYGO root beer
And call themselves clowns cuz they look queer
FAGGY 2 dope and silent gay
Claimin Detriot, when y'all live twenty miles away
And I don't wrestle I'll knock you fuckin faggots the fuck out
Ask them about the club they was at when they snuck out
After they ducked out the back when they saw us and bugged out
Ducked down and got paintball shot at they truck PLOW!
Look at y'all runnin your mouth again
When you aint seen a fuckin mile road South of 10
And I don't need help
From D-12
To beat up
Two females
And make up
When they tried to scratch me
Wit Lee nails
Slim Anus...you damn right Slim Anus
I don't get fucked in mine like you two little flamin faggots

Eminem responding to Insane Clown Possy's song Slim Anus...dissing Em


So all my bitches and my niggaz and my niggaz and my bitches
Wave your motherfuckin hands in the air
And if you don’t give a shit
Like we don’t give a shit
Wave your motherfuckin fingers in the air

Snoop

[RS Davis]

AppleJax said:

Well, since you asked, you can't really say "fag" either. It's kinda like the "N" word that way. It's rude to say it unless you are one. I know it doesn't seem right, but that's just the way it is. That word is ours. I'm in for it, aren't I? I'm ready, let me have it.

Well, I wasn't really talking about what is acceptable, but what I do.

- Rick

[AppleJax]

Outgirl, perhaps the fact that I'm a man and you're a woman does have something to do with it. I don't know. I want to reiterate though, "fag", "faggot" calling something "gay", no matter the intent, started a slam on gay people, and continues to be a slam on gay people. It is destructive and disrespectful. Even Eminem has admitted that he uses those words to take away someone's masculinity. Think about why those particular words would do that.

Rick, I'm not talking about what is "accepted". You know me well enough to know that's not a priority for me. I'm talking about respecting people, especially the ones you care about. Every time you call something "gay", or call someone a "fag" you're undoing a little bit of your activism of speaking out for gay rights.

[RS Davis]

AppleJax said:

Rick, I'm not talking about what is "accepted". You know me well enough to know that's not a priority for me. I'm talking about respecting people, especially the ones you care about. Every time you call something "gay", or call someone a "fag" you're undoing a little bit of your activism of speaking out for gay rights.

Let me begin by saying I understand where you are coming from on this. I don't call anything gay unless I mean gay, like the picture of Vin Diesel. And I take anyone to task who says "that's gay," when they mean lame or stupid. Usually, I do it with pointed sarcasm. "That TV show loves men? How can you tell?"

As to the word "fag," I think it is subjective. IT all depends on hwo is saying it and why. If our "friend" Forrest were to use it, I know it is not a good thing, because I have a pretty good idea where his heart is in the matter.

On the other hand, if I use it, people who know me know that I am being facetious (sp?) or ironic. For instance, I don't use it as a general way of speaking of people. I don't say, "You know, my friend AJ? He's a fag." But I will say something like, "I think Brad Pitt is great looking, but I'm a total fag." That's not the greatest example, but you kinda get the point, I hope. It's in an ironic way.

I guess what I am saying is I think it is all about the context. I don't think words in and of themselves are generally harmful, bit it is the sentiment and emotion behind the words that give them their power.

- Rick

[outgirl]

Rick: I have no problem with what you've said here and I don't take issue with your use of the word fag in the example you cited. I can only speak for myself though

AJ: Yes. The word faggot is used today by em and others as a way to say someone is not a man, not masculine, a pussy. Eminem calls his father a faggot for abandoning him and I have to agree that makes him not much of a man. Men who abandontheir kids are pussies. It has nothing to do with one's sexuality anymore. At least not in popular culture. In eminem's world, you don't have to be gay to be a fag and you don't have to be a fag if you're gay. Many may disagree. It's just another way of looking at it.

[RS Davis]

outgirl said:

Rick: I have no problem with what you've said here and I don't take issue with your use of the word fag in the example you cited. I can only speak for myself though

Thanks! That support makes me feel really bad for what I am going to say next.

outgirl said:

AJ: Yes. The word faggot is used today by em and others as a way to say someone is not a man, not masculine, a pussy. Eminem calls his father a faggot for abandoning him and I have to agree that makes him not much of a man. Men who abandontheir kids are pussies. It has nothing to do with one's sexuality anymore. At least not in popular culture. In eminem's world, you don't have to be gay to be a fag and you don't have to be a fag if you're gay. Many may disagree. It's just another way of looking at it.

I understand intellectually what you are driving at - and I love Eminem's music - but when I read those lyrics you posted earlier from him, emotionally, they bothered me. I guess the question that sticks in my head is: Why does faggot equal not much of a man?

I guess my opinion - for what it is worth - is somewhere between you and AJ on this one.

- Rick

[RS Davis]

Who would have thought that this thread - of all things - would have led to a meaningful discussion??

- Rick

[AppleJax]

I'm glad it has!

Outgirl, those words have not changed in meaning. They are used to take away someone's masculinity because homosexuality is seen as not masculine. The lyrics you posted even make direct reference to anal sex. Fag still means homosexual, unless you're British, in which case, it means cigarette. (Go figure.) Anyway, maybe Eminem doesn't agree, but he's an artist, no offense, who grew up poor and uneducated. Words with that much history don't just have new meaning because a pop star said so.

Rick, thanks for your explanation. If you use "fag" refering to your own sexual tendancies, that's fine. It's a matter of license. We fags can say "fag." Even Quasi-fags. And that Vin Diesel pic was WAY gay! LOL! I know it sounds stupid, but the "N" word is exactly the same. Whether it ends in "R" or "A", a white boy will never be able to greet his black friends with it and get away with it.

[RS Davis]

AppleJax said:

Fag still means homosexual, unless you're British, in which case, it means cigarette. (Go figure.)

Funny story. You know the British girl band Elastica? That self-titled album they released was called "Smoked a Lot of Fags" in the UK, but the American rep for the label told them we'd all think they meant, "Killed a lot of homosexuals." They were all, "Oh dear," and they changed the album title for stateside release.

AppleJax said:

Rick, thanks for your explanation. If you use "fag" refering to your own sexual tendancies, that's fine. It's a matter of license. We fags can say "fag." Even Quasi-fags. And that Vin Diesel pic was WAY gay! LOL! I know it sounds stupid, but the "N" word is exactly the same. Whether it ends in "R" or "A", a white boy will never be able to greet his black friends with it and get away with it.

I've seen white guys get away with it, but they were white guys who grew up in the hood and were at least culturally black. You know what I mean? I'd never get away with it...hahaha

- Rick

[Kender]

AppleJax said:

I know what you mean, Kender. The world can seem a little overly PC sometimes. "Homosexual" is what it is, and certainly no one can claim that is offensive. I do, however, hear people use the word "gay" in a very impolite way, and I have to say, I don't really like it.

I hear people say "Oh that's not way I mean it," to which I always point out, that word has way too much history for any of us to be redefining it. "Oh that's gay" is a slam on gay people. Period. That's how it got started. That's a fact. It doesn't just stop meaning that.

I don't like to be the one constantly crying "that's offensive" because it becomes trite. I do, however, want to be honest with straight people and tell you if you say "that's gay" in front of a gay person, there's a good chance you're going to hurt their feelings, even if they say you didn't . I would think empathic individuals would choose not to say it, having that knowledge.

Aye, I've heard people say "that's gay" when they mean "that's stupid" or "that sucks"...and I can see how that would offend people. But if someone is just having a conversation, talking about what gay activists are doing or talking about the gay pride march...I don't see why anyone should get huffy about that.

[Kender]

RS said:

I guess the question that sticks in my head is: Why does faggot equal not much of a man?
- Rick

Good question. There are certain gender stereotypes that people are supposed to fit into. For example, men may be (I say "may be" because I don't necessarily agree with this) expected to be "studs", being desired by women, having "manly" names, and being macho hero types.

While in real life, homosexuals can be macho hero types (a gay police officer or a gay firefighter might save my life some day while I cry like a baby, and I'll probably never know it), people who feel the need to hate usually work with stereotypes. They don't want to get to know homosexuals. They might be confused for one if they dare! So they figure if they're having sex with another man, they must be less manly...because if they were manly, well...they'd be goin after the babes! Since homosexuals don't fit into their little box of that says what a man should be doing...they make another little box to put them in...

That's probably not a great answer, but I gotta head to work, and earn a few bucks, so it'll have to do for now. Maybe it'll inspire others to expand and improve on that.

Another quick thought: people tend to think that everyone is like them. A competitive person will generally assume that everyone else is competitive. A person who is more into cooperation, will assume everyone else wants to cooperate...and so on....at least until they see evidence that they were wrong, and the guy that they thought would be a team player, really wants to win at their expense and so on...

It could be that some people cannot handle the shock that people are different from themselves, and cannot stand that difference.
Sadly, the worst of them try to do something about that difference and try to eliminate it...by intimidating, beating and killing those who are different.