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Post by RS Davis on Sept 5, 2004 10:09:50 GMT -5
It's such a tough situation, this debate. I think we all like and respect each other, and I think everyone has handled themselves extremely well. The undercurrent, though, is that according to Kender's beliefs, the way OG lives her life - and she tries as we all do to live a good one - is sinful. It's the catching point, I think, in the whole religeous debate of homosexuality, and the great divide that will always keep Christians who feel this way and homosexuals at arms length. Really, though, I think what Kender has shown is that as long as another value Christians hold is keeping the State out of decisions that are primarily religeous in nature, and accept that non-violent, non-coercive decisions made by homosexuals are not subject to review by the State, but between those people and God, then a common ground and mutual respect can be found. And I think Outgirl has shown that keeping an open mind to Christians - many people would not even have listened to what Kender had to say - and treating each as an individual, can open you up to the possibilities of finding this common ground and mutual respect. I'm not sure what I am trying to say with all of this - I guess I'm just dumping random thoughts about this thread from my head and trying to assemble them into a cogent whole, with not much success. Hopefully, I have at least not pissed any one off, and at best given some food for thought.  - Rick  |
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Post by Kender on Sept 5, 2004 10:41:13 GMT -5
It's such a tough situation, this debate. I think we all like and respect each other, and I think everyone has handled themselves extremely well. The undercurrent, though, is that according to Kender's beliefs, the way OG lives her life - and she tries as we all do to live a good one - is sinful. I'd scratch out the word "debate". I'm not debating anything. That's really not my style. I don't expect anyone to change their beliefs to match mine based on what I write here. Maybe such things happen, but not often. I don't know how Outgirl lives her life, so I'm not about to tell her that she is living a sinful life. Ok, I can probably say that she is, simply because she's human...but then, so am I. Besides, that approach just gets people defensive and when people are defensive, they stop listening and start formulating counter attacks. I'm not Outgirl's judge. I'm not qualified to be Outgirl's judge. I don't want to be Outgirl's judge. I'll leave that job to God, who is all knowing, just, and merciful. All I am doing is presenting my beliefs and the beliefs of the Catholic Church (pretty much the same thing), hopefully in a clear manner, because I think a lot of problems stem from misunderstandings. If people understand, but disagree, I can accept that. Who knows, it might be like planting a seed. We don't always change our minds at the drop of a hat, after all. Sometimes we walk away thinking one thing, but later on find ourself thinking back, and thinking "You know...what she said makes a certain amount of sense...maybe..." |
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Post by RS Davis on Sept 5, 2004 12:37:20 GMT -5
I'd scratch out the word "debate". I'm not debating anything. That's really not my style. I don't expect anyone to change their beliefs to match mine based on what I write here. Maybe such things happen, but not often. I don't know how Outgirl lives her life, so I'm not about to tell her that she is living a sinful life. Ok, I can probably say that she is, simply because she's human...but then, so am I. Besides, that approach just gets people defensive and when people are defensive, they stop listening and start formulating counter attacks. I'm not Outgirl's judge. I'm not qualified to be Outgirl's judge. I don't want to be Outgirl's judge. I'll leave that job to God, who is all knowing, just, and merciful. All I am doing is presenting my beliefs and the beliefs of the Catholic Church (pretty much the same thing), hopefully in a clear manner, because I think a lot of problems stem from misunderstandings. If people understand, but disagree, I can accept that. Who knows, it might be like planting a seed. We don't always change our minds at the drop of a hat, after all. Sometimes we walk away thinking one thing, but later on find ourself thinking back, and thinking "You know...what she said makes a certain amount of sense...maybe..." Okay, we'll say "discussion."  - Rick |
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Post by outgirl on Sept 5, 2004 14:59:46 GMT -5
I have lost my faith so I have also lost some of the passion that I used to have when discussing the bible and homosexuality. It's too easy now to just say that's bullshit and move on. I was raised in the church and had very strong feelings regarding my christian beliefs right up until 2 yrs ago. I used to think that I could be gay and be a christian. I believed the bible was wrong, still do. I believe it is nothing more than a history book written by man reflecting the beliefs of the time. I am not sure what I believe anymore, but I do think I believe in a higher power. I don't believe that the bible is God's word. Since the bible is the cornerstone of christianity, I have decided that I am not a christian. Why would God create me as I am but then order me to remain celibate and alone. Why would he want a whole group who could find love and happiness with each other to deprive themselves of the basic huiman contact and emotions that make our lives worthwhile? I appreciate that the catholics have a compassionate stance in this matter, at least on paper and in the hearts of you kender. You could teach the fundies a thing or two about it, but I don't consider my sexual orientation to be a disorder. Science certainly leans towards genetics. Maybe the bible is just wrong? They say knowledge is the enemy of faith.
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Post by outgirl on Sept 5, 2004 15:02:29 GMT -5
It's such a tough situation, this debate. I think we all like and respect each other, and I think everyone has handled themselves extremely well. The undercurrent, though, is that according to Kender's beliefs, the way OG lives her life - and she tries as we all do to live a good one - is sinful. It's the catching point, I think, in the whole religeous debate of homosexuality, and the great divide that will always keep Christians who feel this way and homosexuals at arms length. Really, though, I think what Kender has shown is that as long as another value Christians hold is keeping the State out of decisions that are primarily religeous in nature, and accept that non-violent, non-coercive decisions made by homosexuals are not subject to review by the State, but between those people and God, then a common ground and mutual respect can be found. And I think Outgirl has shown that keeping an open mind to Christians - many people would not even have listened to what Kender had to say - and treating each as an individual, can open you up to the possibilities of finding this common ground and mutual respect. I'm not sure what I am trying to say with all of this - I guess I'm just dumping random thoughts about this thread from my head and trying to assemble them into a cogent whole, with not much success. Hopefully, I have at least not pissed any one off, and at best given some food for thought. - Rick I will respect anyones religious belief, or at least their right to believe it but those beliefs should be kept in the church and out of the courtroom. Religious beliefs should not be legislated into law. |
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Post by Kender on Sept 5, 2004 18:58:36 GMT -5
I generally stay away from arguing for laws when I discuss this. I write more out of the desire to be understood than anything.
Here's how I think about the Bible:
The Bible was written by men who were inspired by God. They used their own words. They used their own literary styles. They wrote only what God wanted them to write, nothing more, nothing less.
The Bible is not a history book (no matter what the fundies say). The Bible tells something that is called salvation history. It tells of the saving works of God. That is what was important to the inspired authors. This is different than what is important to our modern historians. When writing about a war, for example, a modern historian might be very careful to explain the strategy and tactics of the generals, and how holding onto or taking key positions allowed a smaller force to defeat a larger force.
To the Biblical author, all that is too much detail getting in the way of the story. What is important is that the Israelites won the battle because God was on their side....and so instead of analyzing the military tactics (which would praise Joshua, Gideon etc.) they talk about how a force of 1,000 defeated a force of 10,000. How is such a victory possible? God delivered their enemies to them. Gideon or Joshua may have been great military leaders...but the victory is attributed to God.
Some might say that I'm saying that the authors are lying, but I don't think that's the case. They're teaching a lesson...and who is to say that the lesson is false? If you attribute the victory to having brilliant military leaders...who provided the Israelites with these leaders in a time when they needed them? Who gave them their talents? Telling the story the way the Biblical writers told the story, though...teaches the lesson in a simpler manner.
Beliefs also develop in the Bible. Abram had great faith in God, and was willing to obey even to the point of sacrificing his only son. His only son born to his wife Sara, who was barren, and laughed at the idea that she would have a child because she knew from bitter experience that she could not have children. The command to sacrifice his son must have been heart breaking, but it was not terribly surprising to Abram. The other gods that he knew of (and believed existed) demanded that the first born be sacrificed. Why should His God be any different? Fortunately for Isaac, God was impressed with Abram's faith and taught Abram that while other gods may want human sacrafice, a ram would do nicely instead. It would be centuries before the Israelites believed not only that they should worship only God (because God was a jealous God), but that the other gods did not exist, and that idol worshippers were fools worshipping their own creations rather than the Creator (and some Israelites still worshipped idols...)
It would be some time to get from "an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, a life for a life" to "turn the other cheek" and "love your enemies". I believe that these changes reflect the Israelites getting to know God better...that God's revelation was gradual.
I think that's probably enough for one post. I could probably write pages and pages on this subject and still find my writing to be...inadequate.
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Post by outgirl on Sept 5, 2004 19:16:18 GMT -5
kender:
Your writing is not inadequate and I admire your passion. I wish I could believe in somnething again...but I don't. I can only believe in me.
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Post by Kender on Sept 6, 2004 0:10:01 GMT -5
Ok, you knocked me for a loop. Didn't know what the heck to post after that.
I don't think our passions are that different, outgirl. I'm not one that is keen on putting my personal history on display...because...well...it's personal, dangit. Opening up...well...that's not easy for me to do. I've erected walls for years. Walls turned into castles. Castles got moats. Moats got flesh eating fish. Another moat was filled with magma. Well...you get the idea. I built up a pretty good defense. It's not easily breeched, and the drawbridge tends to be jammed. I don't relate to love songs, but I relate to "I am A Rock" rather well.
That said (and looking up, perhaps unsurprisingly), I know what it feels like to be an outsider, an outcast. Different reasons (even though we didn't meet, I'm sure those that I did meet can attest that I am definately not a lesbian), but same feeling.
Did you know that some people hate Catholics? Tis true. Happily, I've only encountered anti-Catholicism online, but some people hate Catholics. They hate us because they don't know us. They don't understand us. They think they understand us, but what they think they know about us...are misunderstandings at best....outright lies at worst. If I had to guess, it probably sounds like a familiar formula to you.
I'm not comfortable with the idea of being a preacher, seeking converts and so on. I don't like when people are "preachy" to me, so why would I expect them to like it if I was preachy to them?
Still, it is important to me to...provide accurate information to counter the misunderstandings and lies that lead to hate. I guess it comes down to the universal need to be understood. Sort of the outcast saying "Dangit, I'm not that bad..."
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Post by outgirl on Sept 6, 2004 2:58:33 GMT -5
I don't think our passions are that different, outgirl. I'm not one that is keen on putting my personal history on display...because...well...it's personal, dangit. Opening up...well...that's not easy for me to do. I've erected walls for years. Walls turned into castles. Castles got moats. Moats got flesh eating fish. Another moat was filled with magma. Well...you get the idea. I built up a pretty good defense. It's not easily breeched, and the drawbridge tends to be jammed. I don't relate to love songs, but I relate to "I am A Rock" rather well. IT'S NOT A GOOD IDEA TO ISOLATE YOURSELF LIKE THAT KENDER. YOU MISS OUT ON TOO MUCH IN THIS LIFE. That said (and looking up, perhaps unsurprisingly), I know what it feels like to be an outsider, an outcast. Different reasons (even though we didn't meet, I'm sure those that I did meet can attest that I am definately not a lesbian), but same feeling. Did you know that some people hate Catholics? Tis true. Happily, I've only encountered anti-Catholicism online, but some people hate Catholics. They hate us because they don't know us. They don't understand us. They think they understand us, but what they think they know about us...are misunderstandings at best....outright lies at worst. If I had to guess, it probably sounds like a familiar formula to you. VERY FAMILIAR. NOW MULTIPLY THAT BY A COUPLE OF HUNDRED TIMES AND YOU'LL KNOW HOW I FEEL. IT EVEN INVADES OUR FAMILY RELATIONSHIPS. MY MOM AND I DIDN'T SPEAK FOR 3 YRS AFTER I CAME OUT TO HER. I HAVE BEEN EXCLUDED FROM FAMILY REUNIONS. IN THE END, IT DOESN'T MATTER. I AM WHO I AM. Still, it is important to me to...provide accurate information to counter the misunderstandings and lies that lead to hate. I guess it comes down to the universal need to be understood. Sort of the outcast saying "Dangit, I'm not that bad..." I UNDERSTAND. THAT'S ALL I'M TRYING TO DO. LET PEOPLE KNOW WHO I AM. |
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Post by Kender on Sept 6, 2004 7:36:06 GMT -5
IT'S NOT A GOOD IDEA TO ISOLATE YOURSELF LIKE THAT KENDER. YOU MISS OUT ON TOO MUCH IN THIS LIFE. I know...and although there may be an element of exaggeration in my description, there is also truth. Construction started when I was a child, building around the heart of a child...a heart that may have blown some things out of proportion, and by doing so created a self fullfilling prophecy...which fueled construction. Even knowing this, though, does not change what is. It's not that it's impossible for me to open up. It's just not easily or readily done...(but then, aren't most people cautious about this as well?) and when most people encounter the castle - they don't see a reason to approach it. For better or worse, good idea or bad idea...I am who I am, and I don't know how to be anyone else. |
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Post by outgirl on Sept 6, 2004 9:51:35 GMT -5
It's not that it's impossible for me to open up. It's just not easily or readily done...(but then, aren't most people cautious about this as well?) and when most people encounter the castle - they don't see a reason to approach it. I'm not cautious at all. My ex used to get so mad at me for being so open. Not just about being gay.....about everything in my life. I have no secrets and I'll tell anyone anything....within reason of course. I wouldn't tell my boss that I smoke pot for instance. That would just be stupid. But as far as my life is concerned, I'm an open book. I've been kind of living my life online lately because I'm brokenhearted and just can't deal with dating right now...so I sit here at the computer and have great relationships without any real commitment. I have my castle too I guess. I just know I'm not ready for a real relationship and I don't want the drama that always comes. It seems that every woman I meet wants to change me. I don't believe in regrets, (what's the point?) and there aren't many things in my life that I'm ashamed of. This is me. Take it or leave it. I really don't care what others think. I want people to know who I am but if they don't like me....oh well. I don't know. You seem like a nice guy kender. You need to let someone in. Just my opinion dude. |
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Post by whatever on Sept 6, 2004 19:51:14 GMT -5
Opening up...well...that's not easy for me to do. I've erected walls for years. Walls turned into castles. Castles got moats. Moats got flesh eating fish. Another moat was filled with magma. Well...you get the idea. I built up a pretty good defense. It's not easily breeched, and the drawbridge tends to be jammed. I don't relate to love songs, but I relate to "I am A Rock" rather well. Can I just throw in that, I'm glad for when you do open up, because I think you're very nice and I value your opinions? And you have extra defenders around here Kender  You know it! |
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Post by Kender on Sept 6, 2004 19:55:54 GMT -5
Now this is a little awkward. I apologize, I did not intend to turn this into a therapy session...or even to turn this thread into a thread about me. That said, thank you for your kind words.
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Post by whatever on Sept 6, 2004 20:29:00 GMT -5
Now this is a little awkward. I apologize, I did not intend to turn this into a therapy session...or even to turn this thread into a thread about me. That said, thank you for your kind words. I'm sorry  It's difficult, because, well especially now having met you, I feel the need to somehow...validate...your...you. Forgive me please if it's not my place. I want to be another person to say, basically that we talked, and we met, and I think you're okay. In fact, much better than just "okay". You may feel you need barriers. Can I say the the man I percieve is to be liked and admired? It just...bothers me to read you feel that way. Nice, intelligent, funny, cute guys get all my ego-boasting efforts; they shouldn't have to feel that way! No, they shouldn't. We're a priviledged group that can in your circle Kender |
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Post by RS Davis on Sept 6, 2004 20:51:02 GMT -5
You rock, Kender!! - Rick |
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It's difficult, because, well especially now having met you, I feel the need to somehow...validate...your...you. Forgive me please if it's not my place.